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Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Location: Saxony, Djermany
Posted at: 2017-07-13, 23:24

hessenfarmer wrote:

definitly option 3 from my side, cause production cycle does not matter if you control this by economy settings

That's not true face-wink.png


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Posted at: 2017-07-14, 23:29

After all I have done a lot of testing now and had a look to the lua files as well. So I'd like to share another bunch of observations.

  1. Building costs and sizes:
    I compared building costs and storage capacity with other tribes. In other tribes small buildings cost between 3 and 5 ressources depending on wether enhanced building material is used. In the current implementation the frisians small buildings cost sometimes a lot more. furthermore in all other tribes small buildings do not have a capacity to store wares (except the scout). every tribe has its preferred building material (in case of the frisians --> brick). This leads to following suggestions:
    a) make the reed farm a medium sized building due to the building cost.
    b) change the materialss of the scout to 2 log, 1 brick, 1 reed due to reflecting it beeing a frisians (brick) building.
    c) either make the seamstress a medium building due to current storage capacity and building cost or which I deem more appropriate reduce building cost to 2 brick, 1 log, 1 reed and reduce the storage capacity to 3
    d) this would result for the master seamstress being as well either medium or more appropriate just cost 1 brick, 2 log, 1 reed and a storage capacity of 3, 2, 2
    e) change granite to brick in the building cost of the well
    f) make the clay burner (should be probably renamed to claypit) a small building due to the nature of such a buildign being more a hut in reality. Cost could be eventually 2 brick 1 granite 2 reed. Storage should be aprox. 3-4 water.
    g) beekeeper should be reduced in cost remove 1 granite and 2 log and eventually ad one reed (to produce bee baskets) resulting in 2 brick 1 log and 2 (3) reed
    h) remove granite from berry farm cost cause there is no physical reason for it.
    i) exchange 1 granite for 1 brick for the woodcutter to reflect the frisian building material
    j) harmonize building cost for quarry, hunter, forrester and fisher cause they are pretty much the same (a hut for a worker with no special appliances) should be 2 brick 1 log 1 reed from my perspective.

  2. Furhtermore the frisians are quite playable currently but only due to having a big starting advantage regarding the wares in the HQ. We should aim to make this more comparable to the other tribes as well. Although I don't know how to achieve this yet.

I will take al look at the relationship between big and medium buildings now. but this looks as already beeing quite well fitting.

best regards hessenfarmer
PS: Many thanks again to Nordfriese for creating the tribe (as a born hessian living in bavaria with a lot of saxonian friends I love the difference between german tribes ;-))

Edited: 2017-07-14, 23:30
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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-07-15, 10:15

These are some very good suggestions, and I´ll include them all in the next upload (while still waiting for some more votes about the armoursmithy, currently there are 2 votes for option 3 and 1 vote for a variant of 4a).

hessenfarmer wrote:

a) make the reed farm a medium sized building due to the building cost.
b) change the materialss of the scout to 2 log, 1 brick, 1 reed due to reflecting it beeing a frisians (brick) building.

Done

c) either make the seamstress a medium building due to current storage capacity and building cost or which I deem more appropriate reduce building cost to 2 brick, 1 log, 1 reed and reduce the storage capacity to 3
d) this would result for the master seamstress being as well either medium or more appropriate just cost 1 brick, 2 log, 1 reed and a storage capacity of 3, 2, 2

I made them medium buildings

e) change granite to brick in the building cost of the well

Done

f) make the clay burner (should be probably renamed to claypit) a small building due to the nature of such a buildign being more a hut in reality. Cost could be eventually 2 brick 1 granite 2 reed. Storage should be aprox. 3-4 water.

The Clay Pit (renamed it) is now a small building and costs 2 brick 1 granite 1 log 2 reed. It stores 4 water. There is no longer a digger, only a clay burner. To make clay, he looks for a free spot in a radius of 3, digs up some earth, returns home, then uses water to make clay. (The clay burner now uses fire tongs and a shovel, even if he works in a brick burner´s house.)

g) beekeeper should be reduced in cost remove 1 granite and 2 log and eventually ad one reed (to produce bee baskets) resulting in 2 brick 1 log and 2 (3) reed

It now costs 2 brick, 1 log, 3 reed

h) remove granite from berry farm cost cause there is no physical reason for it.
i) exchange 1 granite for 1 brick for the woodcutter to reflect the frisian building material

Done

j) harmonize building cost for quarry, hunter, forrester and fisher cause they are pretty much the same (a hut for a worker with no special appliances) should be 2 brick 1 log 1 reed from my perspective.

Quarry and forester now cost 2 brick 1 log 1 reed. Hunter and fisher cost 1 brick 1 granite 1 log 1 reed. (I think too many buildings shouldn´t all cost exactly the same.)

  1. Furhtermore the frisians are quite playable currently but only due to having a big starting advantage regarding the wares in the HQ. We should aim to make this more comparable to the other tribes as well. Although I don't know how to achieve this yet.

I guess the amount of building materials could be decreased. But not too much, or it will be too hard to build all the basic buildings. I´m now working on a better list of starting wares by comparing with the other tribes.

I will take al look at the relationship between big and medium buildings now. but this looks as already beeing quite well fitting.

best regards hessenfarmer
PS: Many thanks again to Nordfriese for creating the tribe (as a born hessian living in bavaria with a lot of saxonian friends I love the difference between german tribes ;-))

I´m glad you like it face-smile.png


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Tinker
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Joined: 2014-09-12, 10:53
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Posted at: 2017-07-15, 10:43

For armoursmithy I would vote 3 with 4a a close second/


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Location: Saxony, Djermany
Posted at: 2017-07-15, 15:03

hessenfarmer wrote:

After all I have done a lot of testing now and had a look to the lua files as well. So I'd like to share another bunch of observations.

  1. Building costs and sizes:
    I compared building costs and storage capacity with other tribes. In other tribes small buildings cost between 3 and 5 ressources depending on wether enhanced building material is used. In the current implementation the frisians small buildings cost sometimes a lot more. furthermore in all other tribes small buildings do not have a capacity to store wares (except the scout).

It's good that you share those ideas. But you forgot the atlantean gold weaver, which has a store-capacity of 5 gold.

Edit: And you forgot that the barbarian sentry costs only 2 resources (2 hardened wood).

Edited: 2017-07-15, 15:15

*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-07-16, 13:58

After spending some time with Blender, I finally managed to make a building that doesn´t look entirely out of place in the game. The farm has its very own frisian image now. Everyone is free to criticise and/or improve my artwork (such as the fact that the worker hits his head when going through the too-low door); if everyone finds it good enough, I´ll make more buildings similar to this. There are no player colours, animations, build stages or unoccupied images yet (partly because the blender scripts from the media development branch refuse to work for me).

Current voting state for armoursmithy: 3 votes for option 3, 1 for 4a. Looks like option 3 is about to win…


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2017-07-16, 23:31

hi Nordfriese, took the freedom to correct some issues in the clay digger init file (correct is walk_coords) an the tannery image (there was an issue with the hotspot due the working image beeing 10 pixels taller).
Furthermore I reduced the starting wares to almost half of the original amount. This is playable but will be hard on small maps. I tried it on comet island on blue and it worked out. tried it on red and got a big defeat from the Ai (which is always a shame).

regarding the image for the farm: hm.... I think the architecture of the roof seems to be ok, but the building lacks some detail which makes widelands so much fun. You know from my perspective all "settlers" like games take lot of their fun out of their animated littel world which you could get lost in while watching. So the building should have some special features of a Farm. A big door to bring in the abrley for instance. some Farming equipment standing around at the wall etc.

Don't take this personal but the buildings should be looked after from some of the graphics people to fit into the rest of the game. Only thing they might need from you is some kind of frisian blueprint. And for this purpose I think the farm image is giving the right direction.

Thanks again for creating the tribe. It has bben a long time that I spent so much time playing widelands. ( of course my girlfriend would be not so happy about your work keeping me in front of my Laptop ;-))


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-07-17, 12:46

I now pushed a new revision which corrects the mistakes you mentioned (and another few errors). Also, I changed the armour smithy according to option 3 (if there happen to be so many new votes now that another option wins, I´ll just change it again face-smile.png ).

I reduced the initial building materials in the headquarter by about a third. I didn´t test a full game with the new settings yet, though. (The changes apply only to headquarters, not trading outpost/fortified village.)

I never claimed to be a great artist, did I? face-wink.png I´m glad my farm is good enough as a blueprint. So, what is now needed are graphics developers! All volunteers appreciated! For now, I´ll make some more blueprint-like houses like for the farm so the Frisians get more Frisian-looking buildings for functionless huts like hunter/forester/quarry etc. Someone who is skilled at making really good graphics (this excludes me face-smile.png ) can (should) then improve them.

Another thing I want to discuss: Tools currently cost 1 log and 1 iron for 1 tool, no matter what it is. I wonder what those baskets need iron for, or why needles cost wood. On the other hand, changing the cost for some tools doesn´t really make sense either, in my opinion…


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GunChleoc
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Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56
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Posted at: 2017-07-18, 10:49

When creating models, please make sure that all textures used are under free licenses (GPL, CC-by-SA etc.) to avoid trouble in the future. I'm saying this now we we won't have to go through the models and replace stuff later.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-07-18, 19:35

Nordfriese wrote:

I tested these values with einstein´s program:

vs. bar_00 emp_00 atl_00 fri_00 bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_10
bar_00 59.0% 43.2% 33.2% 56.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
emp_00 69.7% 54.8% 42.2% 62.5% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
atl_00 79.9% 70.6% 58.3% 68.9% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
fri_00 57.4% 49.1% 41.9% 54.4% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
bar_10 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 51.8% 50.7% 50.2% 63.9%
emp_10 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 56.8% 52.3% 48.2% 52.2%
atl_10 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 56.9% 55.8% 51.4% 59.0%
fri_10 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 45.5% 55.5% 49.5% 57.6%

I assumed an increase of attack for Frisians of 1000 per level, because different values for min/max attack increase are not possible (as far as I know). These values look pretty good. Frisian have a clear advantage when attacking first and are disadvantaged when defending, but the difference isn´t too unbalanced. I´ll include these stats in the next review.

Before everyone forgets this: What have you written here? The values look bad. Frisians have only advantages when attacking first other frisians or imperials. But even though they are strong against imperials, they are pathetic against barbarians and weak against atlanteans. So it is a bad balancing. I would recommend to find much better values (with lower attack perhaps) or just to implement the values which I suggested.


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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