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Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

Nordfriese
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Joined: 2017-01-17, 18:07
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Posted at: 2017-06-22, 13:05

The wiki contains a page about a tribe called the Northmen. According to the page, it is a rough idea about a tribe that might be added as a fourth Widelands tribe. I can´t find any reports about any progress or even discussion of this idea (it mentions a talk page but I couldn´t find it). Is there any discussion or progress?

If no work is going on about the "Northmen", I would like to know what this page is there for. If someone is working on that – could you please tell me? It sounds interesting…

If no one is working on it, but the "Northmen" would be welcomed by other players, I´d volunteer to work on an implementation of that tribe (lua scripting and drawing images for buildings and wares).


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-06-22, 13:14

I didn't know that that page existed - sounds interesting. Do you have any Blender skills? It will be very hard to pull off a tribe that will blend in visually and that's maintainable without using Blender for the animations.

I'm a bit iffy of what the difference between "honey beer" and "mead" are supposed to be - the 2 words are complete synonyms. So, I think we should have "beer" and "mead" instead, with beer needing no honey. Maybe they could also have a "sweet bread" that needs honey?

Also, I'd like to see the civilians working, they are still crashing on the Widelands revision that you specified (bzr 8264).

ComputerPlayer(2): initializing as type 2
 2: expedition max duration = 4725 (78 minutes), map area root: 96
ComputerPlayer(3): initializing as type 2
 3: expedition max duration = 4725 (78 minutes), map area root: 96
Forcing flag at (79, 89)
Message: adding warehouse for player 1 at (79, 88)
Forcing flag at (15, 25)
Message: adding warehouse for player 2 at (15, 24)
Forcing flag at (47, 57)
Message: adding warehouse for player 3 at (47, 56)
Error in Lua Coroutine
[widelands/civilians/src/scripting/lua_errors.cc:22] attempt to index a nil value
Send message to all players and pause game
Edited: 2017-06-22, 13:18
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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-22, 13:48

GunChleoc wrote:

I didn't know that that page existed - sounds interesting. Do you have any Blender skills? It will be very hard to pull off a tribe that will blend in visually and that's maintainable without using Blender for the animations.

I do have some skills with blender, though I cannot create animations (yet). I am still improving my skills with it, so I might be able to make animations with Blender fairly soon. I don´t consider myself such a great artist, though, so someone who is better at drawing might want to improve the graphics then face-smile.png

I'm a bit iffy of what the difference between "honey beer" and "mead" are supposed to be - the 2 words are complete synonyms. So, I think we should have "beer" and "mead" instead, with beer needing no honey. Maybe they could also have a "sweet bread" that needs honey?

Does everything even have to be implemented exactly as described? I agree that "honey beer" is unnecessary, and honey makes more sense on bread – perhaps "honey bread" as an upgraded kind of bread for more experienced miners?

But I also intend to slightly change the tribe´s description: The history I imagine for them is that they once were a tribe that lived in an area equivalent to the northern half of modern Schleswig-Holstein (Germany). They were a culture that was descended partly from Vikings, partly from the Nordfriesen living on the western shore of that region. The tribe sailed north one day and settled in the north of Scandinavia, where they live ever since and call themselves "Northmen".

Such a history would mean some minor changes to the economy. As I said, the description in the wiki should only be a guideline, not an order what to do and what may not be done. But before I actually start scripting, I want to discuss it all. I don´t want to spend ages working on something and then nobody likes the result…

Also, I'd like to see the civilians working, they are still crashing on the Widelands revision that you specified (bzr 8264).

~~~~ ComputerPlayer(2): initializing as type 2 2: expedition max duration = 4725 (78 minutes), map area root: 96 ComputerPlayer(3): initializing as type 2 3: expedition max duration = 4725 (78 minutes), map area root: 96 Forcing flag at (79, 89) Message: adding warehouse for player 1 at (79, 88) Forcing flag at (15, 25) Message: adding warehouse for player 2 at (15, 24) Forcing flag at (47, 57) Message: adding warehouse for player 3 at (47, 56) Error in Lua Coroutine [widelands/civilians/src/scripting/lua_errors.cc:22] attempt to index a nil value Send message to all players and pause game ~~~~

Always those civilians… They aren´t civilised enough to work properly with a computer face-wink.png I never got the error, but they aren´t that much fun to play with anyway. They are very unbalanced, have inefficient transportation, are much too strong and cheap in battle, get deadlocked too easily with coal… I no longer work on them or play with them. So, I don´t know what causes the error (perhaps because I developed them under several versions of Widelands with slightly different lua requirements), but you´re not missing much face-smile.png

I am quite sure that this would not be an issue when scripting the "Northmen", as my lua skills have improved a lot since then face-smile.png


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Tinker
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Posted at: 2017-06-22, 13:50

There is a subltle difference between honey beer and mead irl. Honey beer is made with frmented gain and added honey to sweeten in, normally fairly weak >6% by voulme. Mead is made from fruit fermented with honey and is often stonger <5% up to 25% by volume. As the proposed tribe does not seem to have any grain they they could not make beer, honey beer seems a good descrition for a weaker drink and mead relacing the stong beer so beloved by barbarians. As they have bread there must be something to make it from, but normal grain would not grow so well in ice and snow, fortifying what ever thay make the breaf from with honey does seem a good idea..

If this idea progresses I might even get back to using blender again.


The only way to prevent a mass extinction event is to remove homo sapiens, or stupiditus, from the planet. It may be to late for this final solution though.

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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2017-06-22, 14:21

Nordfriese wrote:

The wiki contains a page about a tribe called the Northmen.

That's surprising. By the way, how old is that page? Well, there are already men from the north in the game: The barbarians. (I don't know why they are described somewhere as men from the east instead, it doesn't make sense in my opinion.)

According to the page, it is a rough idea about a tribe that might be added as a fourth Widelands tribe.

Why do you think that? I don't see anything there like "This could be tribe number four". For me it would be less surprising if there was a time when the empire was the only tribe and there have been discussions about the second tribe which might be added, and if the wiki page would have been made in that time...

If no one is working on it, but the "Northmen" would be welcomed by other players, I´d volunteer to work on an implementation of that tribe (lua scripting and drawing images for buildings and wares).

Welcomed only if they are not a kind of copy of the barbarians ( a tribe which would not be too similar to one of the three would make more sense in my opinion), and if the tribe balancing will be not much worse than now (and I think that this would be very hard to achieve....) face-wink.png

I don't want to say that the current tribe balancing is bad. It is okay in my opinion face-smile.png


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-06-22, 14:25

So, the civilians were an experiement then face-smile.png

Since they have reindeer, they could have a Sámi element to their culture too.

Regarding fermented drinks, how about apple cider? Or spiced mead? Or let's go stronger with an aquavit? This also looks interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawdust_brandy

Or how about having an Asian, African or American-based tribe?

Edited: 2017-06-22, 14:37
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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-22, 14:50

One reason why I am so interested in the Northmen is that they can be seen as having inherited old Friesian culture. This is one thing that is very important for me.

I have written a description of their economy based on the wiki with a number of changes. As WorldSaviour remarked, balancing will be the hardest piece of work…

Here is the description I have written:

Houses are built mostly out of bricks and wood. Bricks are produced out of granite and clay. Clay is produced out of water and earth. Water is mined in wells, wood is cut by woodcutters. Earth is taken out of the ground by a Mud Mine and processed with water into clay at a Clay Burner´s House. Trees are replenished by foresters. Granite is cut out of rocks by a stonemason at a quarry. All houses must have Reet (I don´t know the English word; Reet is similar to thatch reed, but a different ware!) for the roofs. Reet is produced at a Reet Farm. (Reet replaces the leather of the wiki page; very important detail for me).

Meat and fish are finite resources that can be obtained by a Hunter or Fisher. They must be smoked in a Tannery using logs. An Aqua Farm needs water nearby and always produces fresh fish (like imperial piggery for meat, but cheaper).

There is a grain farm that grows a slow-growing kind of grain that can survive the harsh climate. Grain is used for bread and beer. Bee-keepers keep bees and produce honey. Bees need grain fields or trees nearby. A bakery bakes bread out of a little grain and lots of water. The enhanced form Sweetbread Bakery additionally produces Sweet bread out of grain, water and honey. A brewery produces beer and in its enhanced from additionally mead. Beer and mead are exactly as expensive as bread and sweet bread.

Mines come in 2 levels: Normal and Deep. A normal mine needs rations, which are produced in a tavern. A ration needs: 1×(smoked fish OR smoked meat OR bread) AND 1×beer. A deep mine needs meals, produced in a drinking hall. The meal costs: 1×(smoked fish OR smoked meat) AND 1×sweet bread AND 1×mead.

Normal mines consume 1 ration and produce 2×coal/1×iron_ore/1×gold_ore. The chance of an empty mine is 5%. Deep mines consume 1 meal and produce 3×coal/1×iron_ore/2×gold_ore. The chance of an empty mine is 10%.

There is a reindeer farm. Reindeers are bread both as carriers and because they yield furs for clothing. A weaving mill turns furs into cloth (for ships) and fur cloth. A seamstress equips fur cloths with iron to produce Silver Fur Cloths. A master seamstress can equip Silver Fur Cloths with gold to produce Golden Fur Cloths.

The soldiers are called warriors. Their max training is: attack 6, health 4, evade 0, defense 0. They are equipped in a barracks and trained in a Trainingcamp by a trainer. Their equipment is an Ax and a Fur Cloth. The upgrade equipment is: Broad Ax, Bronze Ax, Double Ax, War Ax, 2 Double Axes, 2 War Axes. (The stronger soldiers carry two axes at once). Life training: Helmet, Silver Fur cloth, Golden Helmet, Golden Fur Cloth.

Iron ore and Gold ore are smelted in a furnace using coal as fuel. Coal can also be obtained by a charcoal kiln. A blacksmithy produces tools out of Logs and Iron. A Weaponsmithy uses iron and coal to make Axes, Broad Axes, Helmets. It can be upgraded to a Master Weaponsmithy which also produces Bronze, Double and War Axes and Golden Helmets using gold.

Military buildings: Wooden Tower, Outpost; Wall; Fortress, Stone Tower.

I´m not trying to say this is perfect. It is open for discussion. I will not start scripting until everything has been agreed on.


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-06-22, 15:13

Why is Reet different to thatch reed? I always imagined our thatch reed to be Reet.

Since you're aiming for specific Frisian elements, any ideas to have a Watt product in there that's a bit more distinctive than a fish farm?

And how about having some sheep?


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trimard
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Posted at: 2017-06-22, 15:29

An economy based on clays and bricks rather than wood would be quite different than barbarian I think.

It's a great idea, count me in for a few buildings in Blender this summer if you decide to go on this project face-smile.png

On a more general note, I think a new tribe is a lot of work.Yes. But it's also a great way to have significant activity on widelands. And that's always good. Because more activity simply calls for more activity.

And personnaly I don't think there is any problem in having too many tribes. Most strategic games aren't perfectly balanced anyway. And a lot of them have a lot of tribes (like age of empire)


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-06-22, 17:39

GunChleoc wrote:

Or how about having an Asian, African or American-based tribe?

That would be good. In my opinion better than second barbarians face-wink.png

Or what about fantasy tribes? Elves, dwarfs and so on?

GunChleoc wrote:

Since you're aiming for specific Frisian elements, any ideas to have a Watt product in there that's a bit more distinctive than a fish farm?

A Watt product? face-grin.png Watt worm farm? :D

And how about having some sheep?

Well... How not messing them up with the wild sheeps?

trimard wrote:

And personnaly I don't think there is any problem in having too many tribes.

Well, as there are only 3 tribes, "too many tribes" is very far away face-wink.png

Most strategic games aren't perfectly balanced anyway.

Yes. And in Widelands: Balancing is extremely map-dependent anyway. And win-condition-dependent. So I think you always have to choose the right tribe. Balancing means here, maybe: It should not be always the same tribe which is perfect for every match, and no tribe should be without any chance at all matches. If I'm not mistaken.

And a lot of them have a lot of tribes (like age of empire)

Yes. And that is more interesting than only 3 tribes... I don't know if AoE has too many "tribes" or not, but I know Age of Mythology where you could once choose 12 different "tribes" and I think that this was not too much, not at all.

Nordfriese wrote:

One reason why I am so interested in the Northmen is that they can be seen as having inherited old Friesian culture. This is one thing that is very important for me.

I have written a description of their economy based on the wiki with a number of changes. As WorldSaviour remarked, balancing will be the hardest piece of work…

Here is the description I have written:

Houses are built mostly out of bricks and wood. Bricks are produced out of granite and clay. Clay is produced out of water and earth. Water is mined in wells, wood is cut by woodcutters. Earth is taken out of the ground by a Mud Mine and processed with water into clay at a Clay Burner´s House.

I see some possibilities for a Mud mine. It could be a mine which doesn't need ressources. And it could be a mine which could be placed on normal area. Or placed only on mining areas. Or placed on both...

Trees are replenished by foresters. Granite is cut out of rocks by a stonemason at a quarry. All houses must have Reet (I don´t know the English word; Reet is similar to thatch reed, but a different ware!) for the roofs. Reet is produced at a Reet Farm. (Reet replaces the leather of the wiki page; very important detail for me).

Meat and fish are finite resources that can be obtained by a Hunter or Fisher. They must be smoked in a Tannery using logs.

As two tribes don't use smokeries, and one uses it, it makes sense that tribe number 4 also uses smokeries face-smile.png

An Aqua Farm needs water nearby and always produces fresh fish (like imperial piggery for meat, but cheaper).

Why not...

There is a grain farm that grows a slow-growing kind of grain that can survive the harsh climate.

Slow-growing could mean that the farms need more space, but it doesn't mean that they are producing slower... Well, it's a nice idea.

Grain is used for bread and beer. Bee-keepers keep bees and produce honey. Bees need grain fields or trees nearby. A bakery bakes bread out of a little grain and lots of water.

Why should their bread be so watery?

The enhanced form Sweetbread Bakery additionally produces

Sweet bread out of grain, water and honey. A brewery produces beer and in its enhanced from additionally mead. Beer and mead are exactly as expensive as bread and sweet bread.

Mines come in 2 levels: Normal and Deep. A normal mine needs rations, which are produced in a tavern.

Tavern and "smokery"? Ouh... I consider smokeries as the "atlantean taverns", but okay, that is not really important now face-tongue.png

A ration needs: 1×(smoked fish OR smoked meat OR bread) AND 1×beer. A deep mine needs meals, produced in a drinking hall. The meal costs: 1×(smoked fish OR smoked meat) AND 1×sweet bread AND 1×mead.

Normal mines consume 1 ration and produce 2×coal/1×iron_ore/1×gold_ore. The chance of an empty mine is 5%. Deep mines consume 1 meal and produce 3×coal/1×iron_ore/2×gold_ore. The chance of an empty mine is 10%.

I wonder how they want to compensate those crappy mines face-grin.png

If a mining range would be 3, that would be interesting

There is a reindeer farm. Reindeers are bread both as carriers and because they yield furs for clothing.

I also thought about second carriers which are useful for something else face-smile.png But how not messing them up with wild reindeers?

A weaving mill turns furs into cloth (for ships) and fur cloth. A seamstress equips fur cloths with iron to produce Silver Fur Cloths. A master seamstress can equip Silver Fur Cloths with gold to produce Golden Fur Cloths.

The soldiers are called warriors. Their max training is: attack 6, health 4, evade 0, defense 0.

Then, atlanteans would be the only tribe with defense, which would look a little bit weird. And don't forget that evade is not that unimportant for the fighting system face-wink.png

They are equipped in a barracks and trained in a Trainingcamp by a trainer. Their equipment is an Ax and a Fur Cloth.

Axes again? Don't you also think that the game lacks swords? face-wink.png

The upgrade equipment is: Broad Ax, Bronze Ax, Double Ax, War Ax, 2 Double Axes, 2 War Axes.

(The stronger soldiers carry two axes at once). Life training: Helmet, Silver Fur cloth, Golden Helmet, Golden Fur Cloth.

Only one trainingscamp for eight wares? Interesting...


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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