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Topic: B21 Empire Mines Beer/Wine Consumption

stonerl
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Posted at: 2018-09-10, 17:00

The wine and beer distribution in the empire is illogical, IMHO.

Why do iron and coalmines need beer, but marble and gold mines need wine? What would make sense to me is if normal mines receive beer and deep mines wine, since deep mines also need meals instead of snacks.

What's your opinion on this?


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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2018-09-10, 18:36

Why do iron and coalmines need beer, but marble and gold mines need wine?

I didn't find it illogical: The workers in coalmines just like beer much more than wine. Workers in a Marble/Gold mine do think they are working with precious material, so they want also the 'better' drink face-wink.png

You will find many things in widelands that are illogical from a human perspective face-smile.png It's a fantasy game...

What would make sense to me is if normal mines receive beer and deep mines wine, since deep mines also need meals instead of snacks.

-1 The current tribes are well balanced. I fear changing a little thing in one tribe needs a flood of changes in all tribes. But i am conservative and generally against changes. So don't worry about my statement face-grin.png


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2018-09-10, 18:53

I didn't find it illogical: The workers in coalmines just like beer much more than wine. Workers in a Marble/Gold mine do think they are working with precious material, so they want also the 'better' drink face-wink.png

-1 The current tribes are well balanced. I fear changing a little thing in one tribe needs a flood of changes in all tribes

I agree with this. Beer and wine usage should stay as it is IMHO.


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stonerl
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Posted at: 2018-09-10, 19:13

kaputtnik wrote:

Why do iron and coalmines need beer, but marble and gold mines need wine?

I didn't find it illogical: The workers in coalmines just like beer much more than wine. Workers in a Marble/Gold mine do think they are working with precious material, so they want also the 'better' drink face-wink.png

I was pretty sure that this might be an argument for the current implementation face-smile.png But that somehow his hard to grasp... for me. I just used the barbarians as a blueprint. They only use strong beer for the very deeper mines... but not for gold...

You will find many things in widelands that are illogical from a human perspective face-smile.png It's a fantasy game...

Yes I know that it is a fantasy game, but... you know... just a little consistency... face-smile.png

-1 The current tribes are well balanced. I fear changing a little thing in one tribe needs a flood of changes in all tribes.

In build 19, or did you considered the worldsavior-branch?


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2018-09-10, 19:34

kaputtnik wrote:

The current tribes are well balanced.

Do you really think so? I'm not very convinced...

But i am conservative and generally against changes.

I'm not conversative, but I dislike many changes, too

stonerl wrote:

kaputtnik wrote:

Why do iron and coalmines need beer, but marble and gold mines need wine?

I didn't find it illogical: The workers in coalmines just like beer much more than wine. Workers in a Marble/Gold mine do think they are working with precious material, so they want also the 'better' drink face-wink.png

I was pretty sure that this might be an argument for the current implementation face-smile.png But that somehow his hard to grasp... for me. I just used the barbarians as a blueprint.

Different tribes have different habits face-wink.png

You will find many things in widelands that are illogical from a human perspective face-smile.png It's a fantasy game...

Yes I know that it is a fantasy game, but... you know... just a little consistency... face-smile.png

Consistency is good, but the explanation of kaputtnik sounds logical to me. So I don't see a need for a change here.

It never bothered me that coal/iron miners need beer and gold/marble miners need whine, I rather consider this as interesting.


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2018-09-10, 21:03

stonerl wrote:

Why do iron and coalmines need beer, but marble and gold mines need wine? What would make sense to me is if normal mines receive beer and deep mines wine, since deep mines also need meals instead of snacks.

What's your opinion on this?

-1 The empire has good normal mines by this change they could have gold and marble without wine at all which would save them 3 buildings (2 vineyard and a winery) to get full soldier training.


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2018-09-11, 10:04

+1 for hessenfarmer. This explanation is probably best one face-smile.png

I am also against changing that, even if I had (sometimes) problems with remembering about brewery. Here you can tell that I am conservative face-wink.png (hello @ypopezios)


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calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2018-09-11, 16:32

This change would mean empire would no longer need to make vineyards and winery early. they are very marble-expensive buildings, so it would be a nice boon to empire early game. I say, let's save this change for a time when we feel we want to buff empire.

As for balance, I'm not so sure tribes are balanced. Atlanteans can make a soldier with full attack promotion in 35 minutes, as demonstrated by worldsavior in his match with me in the latest tournament. Do other tribes also have similar chances? Because if they can't, we really need to change them accordingly. Or we need to change atlanteans, that combo was so tight that just removing a couple pieces of bread from the starting inventory of atlanteans may stop it.


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2018-09-11, 17:00

that combo was so tight

This is clue here. From my perspective, you don't have to think about is as imbalance, because 90% of players can't think about it as a possibility and 50% of the rest will never try of doing so. face-wink.png If you want to check balance more mathematical way, just make a statistics with 200+ games between different players (and their preferences). Or make 100+ games of AI, which should be a bit the same level of "intelligence" between all tribes.


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calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/

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ypopezios
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Posted at: 2018-09-12, 02:32

einstein13 wrote:

I am also against changing that, even if I had (sometimes) problems with remembering about brewery. Here you can tell that I am conservative face-wink.png (hello @ypopezios)

In a secret mod of Widelands there is an over-imbalanced tribe called widelanders, which has a building called idea-mine, where miners drink an intoxicant ware called conservatism, produced in a building called forum. Idea-mines get exhausted very quickly, and after that point they can extract ideas only randomly, about once during a release-circle...

Then there is another secret mod, where all types of mines are able to operate with all types of drinks, with the various combinations varying in their productivity. Instead of a building (e.g. mine) accepting as input a specific ware, it accepts a specific type of ware (e.g. food, drink, metal etc.) That mod makes Widelands a much deeper game, while improving its logic and consistency.


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