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Topic: Limited storage space in warehouses.

dreieck
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Joined: 2018-08-25, 11:48
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Posted at: 2018-08-25, 11:55

I would like to have an option which, when the user activated it in the game settings, makes tha capacity of warehouses (and buildings which also have that functionality like headquarters and ports) limited:

  • Limited number of wares (total sum),
  • limited number of people (total sum, auto-spawned carriers maybe not included).

In addition, in the individual warehouse, one can set a maximum limit per kind of ware and worker to store.

Limited space was something which was in settlers 3 (althoug I never really played it, because I missed the mandatory roads) and which adds another layer to the economy: You have to avoid overproduction and you have to build storage spaces quite regularly. On some maps this couls yield to really nice logistics gameplay.

Edited: 2018-08-25, 11:55
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ypopezios
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Posted at: 2018-08-25, 23:17

I would like the inverse: A default limited capacity (normal mode) with an optional infinite capacity (easy mode). The tested approach is to combine warehouses of limited capacity with increasingly expensive upgrades of it. So far there has been some resistance from the community, but not a strong case against that feature.


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dreieck
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Posted at: 2018-08-26, 15:33

ypopezios wrote:

I would like the inverse: A default limited capacity (normal mode) with an optional infinite capacity (easy mode). The tested approach is to combine warehouses of limited capacity with increasingly expensive upgrades of it. So far there has been some resistance from the community, but not a strong case against that feature.

Does not matter to me what is the "default" options, as long as it is an option. So this means the idea is already considered and (almost) present in the codebase?


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2018-08-26, 18:16

It's far from almost present in the codebase, because a feature like this would have engine implications too - how will productionsites react when warehouses are full? If we just keep producing logs, for example, all the roads will get clogged up.


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ypopezios
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Posted at: 2018-08-26, 18:34

It's not present in the codebase. What I meant is that it is tested in Settlers. Still if we decide to adopt it, it shouldn't be hard to implement. There is already code for upgrades and for preventing congestion. And the total capacity of the warehouses can easily override the user-set target for the ware or the infinite target if it is a basic ware. A further idea is to separate warehouses from worker-houses. The whole thing needs careful design, but it is easier than some other planned changes (e.g. markets and trading).

EDIT: Improved English

Edited: 2018-08-26, 21:40
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dreieck
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Posted at: 2018-08-26, 18:35

GunChleoc wrote:

It's far from almost present in the codebase, because a feature like this would have engine implications too - how will productionsites react when warehouses are full? If we just keep producing logs, for example, all the roads will get clogged up.

I think exactly that are the problems the player should circumvent through managing logistics. Yes, they get clogged up. Because of overproduction. So the player has to do sth. against it. If everything is blocket -- well, he has to shut down producers, build new, free temporary roads just from a warehouse to a site were a new warehouse is to be built, delete and rebuild flags with wares (to get rid of the wares -- they will be destroyes, but then there is space again) or such.

That is what I expect to happen when there is overproduction and like to have it part of the game.

(Since there is another discussion about congestion here -- if there is congestion and the congestion-control alforithm is in place, I think the wares are just not taken anymore away from buildings that produce)


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ypopezios
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Posted at: 2018-08-26, 19:04

@dreieck

Congestion-control algorithm prevents congestion, producers indeed stop adding new wares in the system, but the road-system is still punished for operating near its capacity limits. So the challenge remains for the user to do something about the situation, otherwise the economy will remain slowed-down.


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2018-08-26, 20:26

We should also have a visual indicator for the warehouses, so the user won't have to click on all of them to see whether they are getting full.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2018-08-26, 23:05

I'm glad that the suggestion is to make limited storage optional and that it shouldn't be the default option


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2018-08-26, 23:45

@dreieck

From my perspective adding warehouse limits will break current economy look.

If you are comparing Settlers 3 and Settlers 2 (I will use S3 &S2 names), there are significant differences:

1. Roads/ transportation system

In S2 you have roads (the same here in Widelands), but in S3 you don't have them. Instead of this in S3 you have limited number of carriers.

2. Buildings wares

In all S2, S3 and Wide you have some kind of "warehouse" inside each production building, but only in S3 you have mentioned "warehouse" in its output (8 wares). In Wide and S2 you have some kind of "warehouse" on output, but it is very limited (S2 - 1 ware, Wide - didn't care, but probably more?) and you can't find direct data about it.

3. Warehouses

Since economy of S3 is based on pure carriers and "small" warehouses near each building, warehouses in S3 are not needed. I used them only when I needed to store gold and crystals, but only in some cases. In S2 and Wide you have infinite limit of wares for warehouses and it is almost costless.

4. Interesting cases for those economies

In every game I tried to do some tricks to make my game better looking:

a) S2 water & wells

The transportation system was getting jammed easily. Especially with water. In Wide you have less productivity from the well, so it can't be easily jammed with water buckets. But in S2 I use a concept of one-way-away well and water prohibition. Every warehouse had "don't store water" and every well wasn't directly connected to any road. You had special short (usually 2-units long) dead end with a building at the end of it. After some time all wells produced 8 units of water and nothing more. If the water was needed by any other building (f.e. bakery), nearest bucket was called and usually it was nearest well. It was very good practice, especially on big maps.

b) S3 gold & crystals

Since storages were highly expensive (territory, not building cost), I tried to find alternative for them. And I have succeeded. Easiest situation: 2 or more islands. On the first island you produce gold ingots and send to the other one (remember to conquer it!) by a transport ships. If you don't have second island, make it on land. How? Send pioneers to a distance place, separate it from your territory and enemies (conquer everything around it) and then you have your "island". Use donkeys instead of ships. Sending anything to this place will be more useful since you don't have to build any storage house, but you are storing something. Also wares density is much higher than in standard building.

5. My idea how to build working economy in S2/Wide economy with S3 warehouse limits

Just stick to S3 solution: every building has to have it's own small warehouse. This warehouse is building's flag (as it was done in S2 water trick). So the transportation system will be much more complex, but still working. When it will be possible to do? Only on big maps, where you have almost limitless space.

Of course it is not the only solution. It is my first solution for such situation.

6. Impact on my strategy

I have wrote a paper how my strategy works. It is based on "bottleneck" idea: you produce more resources than it is needed to fulfil all economy needs. That is working strategy, but not best one. Best (known) one is based (as you mentioned above) on producing as much resources as are needed. So in general, you should have empty warehouses. But remember that in the late game you have plenty of building resources (wood & stone), regardless of strategy. And those resources can't stay at one place on roads. They have to be moved to warehouses.

Also some maps are designed that you have to cut trees (elven forest) or cut stones (the Nile) to expand. You have plenty of building resources and if you don't cut them, you have lack of useful space. So adding a warehouses limits means redesigning some maps and retesting hundred of cases.

7. conclusion - my opinion

I think that this idea should not be implemented and will not improve Widelands at this point. It would change the game mechanics in major way and can break some parts of it. So I am against it.

If the community says "yes" to this idea, please consider proper preparing for this feature by teaching AI how to solve problems of infinite wares and probably making tutorial for basic economy settings. Maybe build 23 will be proper milestone for the idea?


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/

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