But I believe in order to work effectively frisian farms should be somewhat more efficient than those of other tribes, if given the extra space required. I think "needs 6 fields to work at 100% but makes one barley in 70 seconds " (it's 4 fields and 80 seconds for other tribes, 100 for barbarians) would be a good target
Imo this idea aims in a good direction. But a farm which uses more than 5 fields could be a little bit annoying for the players which use your rhombus street system, because they'd have to cut some roads if they place many farms next to each other
By the way, I played frisians (HQ start) against an atlantean trading outpost AI on Fjords and won. This was some time ago, when barley grew slower than now and most construction costs were higher.
Unfortunately playing against the AI isn't a measure for the balance of the tribe I'm afraid.
Exactly. And it has big problems on Fjords....
And the AI isn't a measure for the balance as well as it performs differently with different tribes due to the vast amount of factors it can be influenced by. Currently I think it performs better with frisians on some maps than with atlanteans.
Thanks for the method how you did the measurement.
I rethought my values for the farms and with the times for walking to the spots your measurements are in a region what could be expected from the lua files I guess. So the basic algorithms are working as expected as I hope.
Unfortunately I think a long game on a big map would be necessary to get a proper balancing. So a 12h game with frisians on the Nile would be very helpful.
Well... Such a match is very extreme...
Of course you can't win the tournament with them but still you could help the community a lot by using them to have a benchmark. for the benchmarking issue I would prefer a long replay or a snapshot every hour.
reason is that frisians should be better in late game and not to bad in early game. so it is helpful to see how an economy develops.
currently i have identified following issues as candidates for improvement:
advantages of the tribe:
- needs less iron due to the ability to recycle
Well... They need iron ore for every trainings step. And a top soldier requires 11.5 iron ores, while an atlantean one requires 11, imperial 13, barbarian 16. So it looks for me as it wouldn't be a frisian advantage, but a barbarian (and imperial) disadvantage to need more iron ore for top soldiers.
- charcoal kilns are more effective which gives an advanteage on maps with few coal.
This advantage is also not big. Every frisian trainings step requires coal, and a top soldier requires 44 coal. But Atl: 25, Emp: 28, Bar: 33. So the advantage to require only 50% of wood for charcoal is not that big. And you need charcoal burners only in corner cases anyway...
- needs a lot of grain which is produced very slowly. This is mainly due to barley is necessary to produce fur which is necessary for every soldier training recruitment.
- needs a lot of building materials which are very expensive.
They probably need a lot building materials because they need so many buildings. I've got somehow not the impression that their building materials are very expensive. But bricks are not cheap, that's true. Though I bet that marble columns are much more expensive...
- basic soldier training needs the same ressources as the advanced training. Micromanagement is more difficult. Even basic training is delayed due to the needed weapons from upgraded smithies.
Any other candidate observations? Happy to discuss these issues before starting to change anything.
I've already pointed out a lot of disadvantages of the Frisians... Here in this thread.
I am restarting the Nile map, actually paying attention to the game this time.
For the balancing comments, Charcoal kilns do require clay so while more efficient they do rob some building materials, which can be in short supply. The recycling of wares from training is a great advantage,
Nah, next to the required iron ore (see above) frisian top soldiers need 8.5 gold ores, while others need only 4 or 3.
if my recycling branch gets finished it will close the gap slightly (other tribes are not as efficient)
The gap is not that frisians are better, but less strong in most aspects.
but perhaps the Frisians should be slightly less efficient, I think they are 100% efficient currently, only needing coal, 70 - 80% efficient might be better.
Besides you seem to overlook something: These percentages are not so important, as it's important how much ores are required
I always seem to be short of either long swords or curved swords and have not found a way to even the supply of both without micromanaging the smithies.
Tip: Just set the economy settings of swords and helmets very low. Frisians need to have some surplus swords (and helmets) while training top soldiers, because their smithies are designed like they are. The trick is that smithies can skip unnecessary swords if they've got enough of them, so they can produce more of the wares which are missing.
And probably even more important: Not overusing barracks while doing complete training is also good.