Topic: internet gamming is too difficult to start

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king_of_nowhere Topic Opener Joined: 2014-09-15, 17:35 Posts: 1668 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2015-11-03, 13:26 In an attempt to get people to play on the internet, i started to sit in lobby, so that people whho join will not find it empty. except that today i found some people that wanted to play, but no one could host a game that could be joined. apparently there is a need for some firewall mojo to be done. The only clue is to look at the internet page /wiki/internetgaming (which, by the way, does not have a link in the site that I was able to find), which is a horribly outdated page still dating back to build 14. Anyway, it only gives some basic information, and the only vaguely relevant thing I could find is that i''d need to "forward port 7396". which would be great, except that I have no flippin idea on how to do that, and a link to wikipedia (to an article too technical for my computer skills) definitely does not help. And I don't even know if that's the problem, or something else. You could say it's my fault for my poor pc knowledge. There would be some truth to it. I am sure you know how to make it work, and it's easy and intuitive for you. However, this is a game, and I never saw a game requiring programming skills. In all the multiplayer games I ever played, I never had those kind of problems. I was able to join the lobby and host games without doing absolutely anything to my firewall settings. I was asked the first time if I should allow the game, I would tick "treat it as safe application", and that would be it. my ppoor pc skills have been more than adequate every single time before. i tried to turn off firewall, but to no avail. Basically, I could not play because the game won't let me. And while I have poor computer skills, most common users are no better than me. I fear we are losing potential internet players because they are unable to make the game start. Someone should have a look there and try to see what is wrong. Top Quote

Vassili Joined: 2013-10-12, 18:19 Posts: 169 At home in WL-forums Location: France	Posted at: 2015-11-03, 14:34 "However, this is a game, and I never saw a game requiring programming skills. In all the multiplayer games I ever played, I never had those kind of problems." Firewall and route is not same thing. Firewall will close ports, router will redirect them between machines. Firewalls are all very easy to use and configure for noobs (port forwarding too, but alot of people think that to do more of one click, is hard). All good internet games require an opened port for communicate, it's normal, you think opposite because games you use must be on steam or other, very recent, and use UPnP for automaticly ask to your router to open ports by using NAT (thing for route ports beetwen Internet and a local network). Personnaly, i don't allow UPnP on my router, but noob people that you was thinking, have UPnP normaly allowed by defaut. So what Widelands need for to be used by noobs who are not directly connected to internet, is some UPnP. But i sincerly think, people who will not use 20 seconds of theyr lifes, to open a port, will not download a libre program too... Edited: 2015-11-03, 14:34 Top Quote

einstein13 Joined: 2013-07-28, 23:01 Posts: 1118 One Elder of Players Location: Poland	Posted at: 2015-11-03, 15:02 Basic rule to enable port forwarding is to answer question + check some thing: 1. Is your computer connected directly to the Internet? (Yes = Ethernet cable is from your Computer to outside of your apartment/ house/ block; No = The cable is from your computer to small box: modem / router; No = WIFI connection; Don't know = You are a student within the University network) Yes - Skip next step (for answer "No") Don't know - Also skip, but don't expect a lot No - do those steps: Find modem/router or user manual Find on router (/modem/ in user manual) informations like: "IP: 192.168.1.1 login: admin password: admin". Information can be different between router version and company (I have not IP, but common http addres: "http://tplinklogin.net"). The information should be underneath the router. Open your internet browser and type the IP address to address bar Simple login window should open: type admin login and password there Now you are browsing your router settings. You should remember what you are changing. To trigger port it is need to set static IP address to your computer. Some routers have settings for that within "DHCP" menu. There is a list of all connected computers/ devices with their IPs. You can copy-paste MAC address to second window (or tab), where you can set static IP address for any machine. That is what we need. After that we need to set port triggering. Menu "Triggering", "Forwarding" or something like that. It contains list of "From", "To", and "IP". "From" and "To" should be port number = 7396. "IP" is an IP of your computer (you set it just before). After all you probably have to reboot your router (some of them needs that). END OF SKIP from answer YES !!! Let's check the firewall (Especially Windows users!) If the problem is there, we can easily check it in few minutes: Close all not important windows (especially Internet browsers) When your system is steady (waiting for your commands, not "thinking"): Disable firewall within control panel Disable your antivirus program Now your computer is very open to any virus/ bot/ ... attack, so we shouldn't stay in that for long Open Widelands (really it is better to reopen the game) Go to multiplayer lobby and begin the game Wait for few seconds/ maybe a minute and check if no error was thrown IF YES (there was an error): Your Internet Provider can prohibit setting up any servers Don't know - I am not an expert user IF NO (there was no errors): Have fun with setting up servers ;), but... You should probably play with settings of your firewall + antivirus program: You should find "White list" of programs or something similar, where you can type what programs are allowed to connect via Internet Maybe your antivirus has "gaming mode" (Eset has), so the work will be done by the program itself Total disabling firewalls and antiviruses is not a good solution. But you can make it shorter: after setting up a server, you can set up firewalls back. Widelands shouldn't throw any error, because the connection exists. And remember: I am not an expert. This is only what I've learned by myself playing with antivirus/ Windows/ router settings for a while! einstein13 calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/ backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/ Top Quote

king_of_nowhere Topic Opener Joined: 2014-09-15, 17:35 Posts: 1668 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2015-11-03, 16:51 Vassili wrote: But i sincerly think, people who will not use 20 seconds of theyr lifes, to open a port, will not download a libre program too... 20 seconds of their life? I spent at least 15 minutes trying to understand what I had to do, and I still had not the faintest idea of how to open a port - in fact i had no idea i needed to access the router, and i had no idea how to access my router; thanks einstein fro clarification. And I don't know what you intend by "recent", but my first multiplayer games were of dota, which used (basically, it was a mod of) warcraft 3. that's way before steam, as far as i know. Though at the time I had a different laptop. As for the idea that someone who won't open a port won't also download widelands, well, you have here at least one notable exception. And other people were in lobby with me today and none of them could fix things, so there must be others. See, that's exactly the kind of bias I'm talking about. You think it's easy and everyone can do it. Or that those who can't do it won't be interested in widelands anyway. That's not the case. plenty of people cannot do it and still would like to play widelands. Would you want to lose so many potential players because you can't abide who can't open a port in their router? If other games do that UPnP thing so that people won't have to manually alter their router, what's so wrong wiith setting widelands to do the same? Einstein gave a good answer, and I should be able to follow it. I see my pc iis connected through a modem, so I'll have to try change itss settings. I'll try. even if i can, changing my ip to static and rebooting my router evry time i want to host a game is not exactly something I'm looking forward to. But anyway, if nothing else, einstein's explanation should be included in the page about internet gaming, and that page should have a better link from the homepage. just because you guys can find it easily, it doesn't mean other can. Edited: 2015-11-03, 16:52 Top Quote

Vassili Joined: 2013-10-12, 18:19 Posts: 169 At home in WL-forums Location: France	Posted at: 2015-11-03, 18:14 Yes, einstein answer was good. But seriously, people who don't know what ports and firewall is, can use google, who will propose thousands of tutorials who are all the same one, cause all internetBoxes offer same services... you don't have to change your local PC IP to static everytime, do you understand what "static" mean? You don't have to re-forward the port and reboot your internetBox, she don't forget her settings. Including the einstein explanation to Widelands documentation mean you will include all internet webpages to widelands doc (why don't include how to use a screen and a keyboard? Humm? it's not related to Widelands, but you need it for play Widelands). Anyway, i will suggest to you to change your PC IP to static, directly by him, not by router, who will make a static dynamic (stupid, isn't?). On Windows: do windows+r, type cmd>>OK, type ipconfig>>enter, and note your gateway IP, type exit>>enter do windows+r, type ncpa.cpl>>OK right-click on the network connection you use, properties, (TCP/IP)IPv4, change it to static, enter the IP you will (preferences for IPs who are not in DHCP range of your box, but not a problem), 255.255.255.0 for netmask, and the same gateway IP you had note before. For DNS, if windows force you to use static config to them too, just enter your gateway IP in primary DNS. Save modification, and voila, your PC will not change IP on your network, so you can forward ports to him via your internetBox by typing his IP in target IP. One exemple: on windows: Ip adress:192.168.1.x where you choose x Subnet mask: 255.255.255.0 Gateway: 192.168.1.1 Primary DNS: 192.168.1.1 on router NAT: protocole:both (TCP and UDP, cause i dunno if Widelands use both) source port/entry port:7396 target port/local PC port:7396 target machine/your PC: 192.168.1.x edit: why this forum always ignore the line break? Edited: 2015-11-03, 18:18 Top Quote

einstein13 Joined: 2013-07-28, 23:01 Posts: 1118 One Elder of Players Location: Poland	Posted at: 2015-11-03, 20:27 Vassili wrote: But seriously, people who don't know what ports and firewall is, can use google, who will propose thousands of tutorials who are all the same one, cause all internetBoxes offer same services... (...) Including the einstein explanation to Widelands documentation mean you will include all internet webpages to widelands doc (why don't include how to use a screen and a keyboard? Humm? it's not related to Widelands, but you need it for play Widelands). I disagree. Not everyone knows how to change router settings in proper way. I don't know how it is in other countries, but here, in Poland, most people buy WiFi router and wait for technical help to set it in proper way. Most of us don't know anything about LAN, WiFi and Internet, except that it is working. Explanation on example should help. I think that many players can do that with small help, but most of them are afraid that they will break something... einstein13 calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/ backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/ Top Quote

tuggyne Joined: 2011-07-21, 23:27 Posts: 42 Pry about Widelands Location: TN	Posted at: 2015-11-03, 20:57 Vassili wrote: "However, this is a game, and I never saw a game requiring programming skills. In all the multiplayer games I ever played, I never had those kind of problems." Firewall and route is not same thing. Firewall will close ports, router will redirect them between machines. Firewalls are all very easy to use and configure for noobs (port forwarding too, but alot of people think that to do more of one click, is hard). All good internet games require an opened port for communicate, it's normal, you think opposite because games you use must be on steam or other, very recent, and use UPnP for automaticly ask to your router to open ports by using NAT (thing for route ports beetwen Internet and a local network). Personnaly, i don't allow UPnP on my router, but noob people that you was thinking, have UPnP normaly allowed by defaut. So what Widelands need for to be used by noobs who are not directly connected to internet, is some UPnP. But i sincerly think, people who will not use 20 seconds of theyr lifes, to open a port, will not download a libre program too... Ugh. Please stop. Deriding anyone who doesn't know how to forward a port in their router as a "noob" or implying that they're even worse than that…. Just no. Don't get me wrong: I've been reasonably comfortable with port forwarding for years. But I am perfectly well aware that there are an awful lot of people that find the prospect rather intimidating, and figuring it out for the first time is anything but trivial, given the wide variety of different routers and ISP setups. (For that matter, my current ISP setup doesn't actually allow forwarding at all. I don't have the credentials needed.) The noobishness, if any really exists, is in Widelands code not yet using STUN/TURN. The protocol has only been out for, what, a decade? We shouldn't force users to jump through hoops that code can do more efficiently and reliably. Top Quote

Vassili Joined: 2013-10-12, 18:19 Posts: 169 At home in WL-forums Location: France	Posted at: 2015-11-03, 20:58 You don't had read what i had write. I don't said everybody know how to do, i say they can read one of thousands tutorials. And again, include all documentation about computers, in Widelands doc, will take more size on a HDD that 100 times the game. How can you know how to read and post on a forum, but not use a search browser? Top Quote

kaputtnik Joined: 2013-02-18, 19:48 Posts: 2442 OS: Archlinux Version: current master One Elder of Players Location: Germany	Posted at: 2015-11-03, 21:49 I am trying to set a portforwarding on my router. All fine and good i use my webbrowser to get into the router settings... There is no option "portforwarding", but an option "portenabling" (sorry my router is in german and the original word is "Portfreigabe" which i translate to "portenabling") The description says its the thing i am searching for... OK now i will set my portforwarding for port 7396. The UI has a dropdownbox with different choices for "portenabling active for:" FTP-Server HTTP-Server emule TCP emule UDP MS Remotedesktop other Exposed host After playing around i found that "other" would be the thing i should use, because its the only option which provides the setting of a port. OK, one step forward.... Now i could set a port number in 3 places but have to choose a protocol first: TCP UDP ESP GRE I really don't know which protocol i should choose. I couldn't find a hint on this in wikipedia nor in the widelands wiki. Hm, maybe it's not really importand, lets see where to set the port numbers: Places to set the portnumber: from port to port Hm... don't know, seems to be a range. I will set the port 7396 in both settings. Next setting is "on computer" Ok, this is easy, its just my computer network name. Alternatively i could set an ip address. OK, now the last step: One more time i should set a port number: on port Don't know.... its preset is set to port 80. I think i should set it to port 7396 also. I wouldn't call me a noob, but this network stuff is really disturbing Vassili, could you tell me which protocol i should use? And are my other settings right? Am i really in the right place to make a portforwarding? And when did the changes take effect? Edited: 2015-11-03, 21:52 Fight simulator for Widelands: https://wide-fighter.netlify.app/ Top Quote

SirVer Joined: 2009-02-19, 14:18 Posts: 1445 One Elder of Players Location: Germany - Munich	Posted at: 2015-11-03, 21:50 I would like to inject some history into this discussion. First, Widelands source code is not noob, it is just old. In fact, 14 years old. There was no uPNP or comparable technology around when the first network code was written. And nobody added support for it since. A contribution of that sort of code would have been merged in a heartbeat, I can guarantee that But the real problem is not fixed even with that. IPv6 is upon us - a lot of providers do not offer ipv4 anymore. Widelands does not support ipv6 and port forwarding is less trivial with it too. The only solution that fixes this once and for all is changing the Widelands metaserver to open a port to host a game - the way every modern game does it. Essentially forwarding traffic between players, something like battle net. Designs for that have been around for 3 years or so, but nasenbaer who wanted to work on that has no longer time for Widelands, so it has not been worked on. Also here, contributions would be very very helpful and appreciated. Thanks for bringing this issue up. It is an annoying one and it is a known one and there are probably already bug reports open for it. Also thanks to everybody providing technical support here - I find port forwarding a complex topic needing too deep understanding of network technology and definitively nothing the player should need to know to enjoy Widelands. Therefore, I agree that the issues should not impede online gaming, but alas, it does with Widelands. Let's hope it will be fixed before ipv6 kills online gaming in Widelands for good. Top Quote