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Topic: Economy, maybe a bug?

manphi
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Joined: 2019-04-29, 23:54
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Posted at: 2019-04-30, 00:12

I have a problem with the games economy.

I'm now playing the game for several hours on one map and have an enormous economy. About 150 mines that nearly all are exhausted but are still supported with food (because I still want to get there little resources).

When I start construct a building sometimes it does not finish because one (or sometimes two or three) resouces are never delivered to the building side. When I turn down the needs of the construction side for a short time and then put it up again the building is finished within a few minutes. That did not happen only once.

And the same is with resources they need for production- as far as I can tell. Because in this case you have to watch the building quite long. But if I saw a building that ran on 5-15% for some time I turned down the needs, waited for a few seconds, switched back to maximum and the next few hours it was at 50-90% (depending on the building and the supplies available). Therefor I assume there is also a problem here...

Is this bug maybe related to the bug with resources that lie at flags and are not transported anymore? i even have many resources at my flags- and they are getting more and more.

I am using the latest version since 3 days (previous a build20 without music, I can search where I found that version if necessary)

And as i read the flag-bug should not exist anymore in Build20?! Cannot confirm that. And a question to that: do these ressources only shop up there? Or are they realy there? The difference for me would be: if they are realy there they count for the limit. Otherwise it's just an illusion...

But btw: realy, realy, realy good game. I love it! You are great!

Edit: typing mistake that made no sense

Edited: 2019-04-30, 00:15
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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-04-30, 01:25

manphi wrote:

I have a problem with the games economy.

I'm now playing the game for several hours on one map and have an enormous economy. About 150 mines that nearly all are exhausted but are still supported with food (because I still want to get there little resources).

When I start construct a building sometimes it does not finish because one (or sometimes two or three) resouces are never delivered to the building side. When I turn down the needs of the construction side for a short time and then put it up again the building is finished within a few minutes. That did not happen only once.

And the same is with resources they need for production- as far as I can tell. Because in this case you have to watch the building quite long. But if I saw a building that ran on 5-15% for some time I turned down the needs, waited for a few seconds, switched back to maximum and the next few hours it was at 50-90% (depending on the building and the supplies available). Therefor I assume there is also a problem here...

Is this bug maybe related to the bug with resources that lie at flags and are not transported anymore? i even have many resources at my flags- and they are getting more and more.

I am using the latest version since 3 days (previous a build20 without music, I can search where I found that version if necessary)

And as i read the flag-bug should not exist anymore in Build20?! Cannot confirm that. And a question to that: do these ressources only shop up there? Or are they realy there? The difference for me would be: if they are realy there they count for the limit. Otherwise it's just an illusion...

But btw: realy, realy, realy good game. I love it! You are great!

Edit: typing mistake that made no sense

the way you describe it, it seems not a bug, but a problem with transportation. As your economy gets bigger, you need more and better roads, else transportation collapses. Just like in the real world, actually. then wares are not delivered anymore, which cranks down your economy until the lack of newly produced resources clears the roads a bit...

if you have a lot of wares waiting at the flags, then you are misnanaging transportation. try to set up multiple paths for the wares to avoid chokepoints, try to completely avoid 3-step roads on main routes because even just one of those will be a chokepoint. ultimately, transportation is your main enemy when you get very big


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2019-04-30, 01:46

manphi wrote:

I have a problem with the games economy.

I'm now playing the game for several hours on one map and have an enormous economy. About 150 mines that nearly all are exhausted but are still supported with food (because I still want to get there little resources).

When I start construct a building sometimes it does not finish because one (or sometimes two or three) resouces are never delivered to the building side. When I turn down the needs of the construction side for a short time and then put it up again the building is finished within a few minutes. That did not happen only once.

And the same is with resources they need for production- as far as I can tell. Because in this case you have to watch the building quite long. But if I saw a building that ran on 5-15% for some time I turned down the needs, waited for a few seconds, switched back to maximum and the next few hours it was at 50-90% (depending on the building and the supplies available). Therefor I assume there is also a problem here...

Is this bug maybe related to the bug with resources that lie at flags and are not transported anymore? i even have many resources at my flags- and they are getting more and more.

Yes, maybe. Was it a loaded savegame or a new game which you played without stopping and loading? And do you play with release candidate 20? I saw the bug some days ago several times, we all had version rc20 or bzr9043 or something like this. One time it didn't even help to switch the wares at the construction side, and it didn't help to rebuild roads neither.

I am using the latest version since 3 days (previous a build20 without music, I can search where I found that version if necessary)

And as i read the flag-bug should not exist anymore in Build20?! Cannot confirm that. And a question to that: do these ressources only shop up there? Or are they realy there? The difference for me would be: if they are realy there they count for the limit.

Which limit?


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2019-04-30, 07:09

There is a known bug that sometimes a ware loses its destination, and we haven't found it yet. It's hard to pin down, because it happens pretty rarely.


Busy indexing nil values

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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-04-30, 15:01

GunChleoc wrote:

There is a known bug that sometimes a ware loses its destination, and we haven't found it yet. It's hard to pin down, because it happens pretty rarely.

I could imagine that the bug happens only when one loads a savegame.


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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manphi
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Joined: 2019-04-29, 23:54
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Posted at: 2019-05-01, 15:42

king_of_nowhere wrote:

the way you describe it, it seems not a bug, but a problem with transportation. As your economy gets bigger, you need more and better roads, else transportation collapses. Just like in the real world, actually. then wares are not delivered anymore, which cranks down your economy until the lack of newly produced resources clears the roads a bit...

if you have a lot of wares waiting at the flags, then you are misnanaging transportation. try to set up multiple paths for the wares to avoid chokepoints, try to completely avoid 3-step roads on main routes because even just one of those will be a chokepoint. ultimately, transportation is your main enemy when you get very big

I have no 3-step roads in the main transportation routes.

And it is not a bug when there is a fish at a flag, no other wares around and no worker carries the fish away? I know, that transportation is key for a large and running economy, I always build double-roads for main transportation routes, try to avoid any building being directly connected with these roads (at least one 2-step road away), try to build warehouses where they are needed and split different resources between nearby warehouses to avoid a chokepoint, ... I think my transportation system is pretty fine- also if it is not "the best". But the wares are not transported for hours, even if there is no chokepoint anymore.

WorldSavior wrote:

Yes, maybe. Was it a loaded savegame or a new game which you played without stopping and loading? And do you play with release candidate 20? I saw the bug some days ago several times, we all had version rc20 or bzr9043 or something like this. One time it didn't even help to switch the wares at the construction side, and it didn't help to rebuild roads neither.

I had to load the game several times- because I don't wanna play for days without a break and there is also another bug/nonconformance I have found no suggestion for that forced me to reload (but we should stay at this topic, the other thing is for sure not connected to that, it was just a problem with ingame controls)

WorldSavior wrote:

Which limit?

there is a limit for wares at a single flag, isn't it? But when I read through the other descriptions of the bug I think the wares are realy there, therefor they count. The reason why I ask this: if there are more wares at a flag that are not transported anymore the flag will be blocked somewhen.

GunChleoc wrote:

There is a known bug that sometimes a ware loses its destination, and we haven't found it yet. It's hard to pin down, because it happens pretty rarely.

is there any suggestion how to give these resources a new destination? And additionaly: do they still count as "on the way" for there destination? Because some buildings do not get wares for building up or work I think they still count there, otherwise there would be another ware that takes their place and would be delivered.

A workaround would be to delete all wares without destination after 10 seconds, wouldn't it? Then the ware does not exist anymore, the building calls for a new one, the road is cleaned.

But for this "solution" I would suggest to make it optional, so there should be a tick in gameplay options with the hint "if you activate this you might also loose some resources- but your roads get cleaned up". If just make such a check/cleanup when loading a game, then you also can see if the bug still occures.. If you want me to help you with testing just let me know.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-05-01, 16:34

manphi wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

the way you describe it, it seems not a bug, but a problem with transportation. As your economy gets bigger, you need more and better roads, else transportation collapses. Just like in the real world, actually. then wares are not delivered anymore, which cranks down your economy until the lack of newly produced resources clears the roads a bit...

if you have a lot of wares waiting at the flags, then you are misnanaging transportation. try to set up multiple paths for the wares to avoid chokepoints, try to completely avoid 3-step roads on main routes because even just one of those will be a chokepoint. ultimately, transportation is your main enemy when you get very big

I have no 3-step roads in the main transportation routes.

And it is not a bug when there is a fish at a flag, no other wares around and no worker carries the fish away?

yes it is. exception: fish has no destination (warehouse for example).

WorldSavior wrote:

Yes, maybe. Was it a loaded savegame or a new game which you played without stopping and loading? And do you play with release candidate 20? I saw the bug some days ago several times, we all had version rc20 or bzr9043 or something like this. One time it didn't even help to switch the wares at the construction side, and it didn't help to rebuild roads neither.

I had to load the game several times- because I don't wanna play for days without a break and there is also another bug/nonconformance I have found no suggestion for that forced me to reload (but we should stay at this topic, the other thing is for sure not connected to that, it was just a problem with ingame controls)

I'm almost sure that the bug only happens if one has loaded the match - it doesn't appear in normal fresh matches.

WorldSavior wrote:

Which limit?

there is a limit for wares at a single flag, isn't it?

Yes, 8 wares

GunChleoc wrote:

There is a known bug that sometimes a ware loses its destination, and we haven't found it yet. It's hard to pin down, because it happens pretty rarely.

is there any suggestion how to give these resources a new destination? And additionaly: do they still count as "on the way" for there destination? Because some buildings do not get wares for building up or work I think they still count there, otherwise there would be another ware that takes their place and would be delivered.

A workaround would be to delete all wares without destination after 10 seconds, wouldn't it?

I wouldn't like this, because it can also happen that some flags lose connection to an economy, so many wares on them lose their destination. It wouldn't be helpful if the wares disappear after 10 seconds because they would be lost. So I see why you suggested that this should be optional. I guess that the other developers want to fix the bug instead of implementing this new option.


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2019-05-01, 17:01

A better workaround would be to reroute the idle ware to the nearest warehouse. Of course, that will only mask the original bug, so it would really better to track that down and fix it.

I agree with WorldSavior that adding a UI option to circumvent a bug is not a good design.

You can get the wares moving again by deleting and re-adding roads.

Edited: 2019-05-01, 17:02

Busy indexing nil values

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manphi
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Posted at: 2019-05-01, 17:30

From my point of view: preventing a problem in game is better than not to know why the problem exists and not be able to track it down. I thought it only should be a temporery "solution", just until the bug was detected and fixed. That's also why i called it a workaround, not a fix.

Still unanswered or not completely clear: Do these resources count against the limit of wares at a flag? (I guess yes) Do these resources still count as "to be delivered" at their destination? (I guess yes)

GunChleoc wrote:

A better workaround would be to reroute the idle ware to the nearest warehouse. Of course, that will only mask the original bug, so it would really better to track that down and fix it.

I agree with WorldSavior that adding a UI option to circumvent a bug is not a good design.

You can get the wares moving again by deleting and re-adding roads.

I agree with that- also with WorldSavior and not to delete the wares after 10 seconds. But will this also fix the blocked wares at the destination? I hope so.

But deleting and re-adding roads did not solve the problem in any case- at least I thought I have tried this before I wrote here and it had no effekt. But I retried it a few minutes ago and it worked (in 3 cases). I will come back if I have an example where it does not work.

Anything else I can do to make it easier for you to find the bug? I'm not a developer, but I quite good can track down problems if I have a clue where to start.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-05-01, 18:42

Just forgot to add to this thread an observation I made with the savegame provide for one of the bug reports for this issue.

I believe it only happens in very big economies. perhaps this might be an overflow issue somewhere. I believe also that ports are part of this issue. the more ports the often this happens. When it starts to happen it doesn't clear itself.


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