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Topic: Frisian Balancing

hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2018-04-26, 23:56

Ok excel is up Mines seem to be very strange. Although frisians are not that disadvantaged that much. After looking at the spreadsheet I really support the task of WorldSavior to troubleshoot them. HAve a look and you will se what I mean.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2018-04-28, 00:37

Just uploaded first version of the branch containing build cost, new farm cycle and training cost changes. Although had not tested it yet.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2018-05-04, 18:48

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Which kind of help do you wish exactly?

I need to know what buildings of which type are needed to supply a constant 100% output of soldiers. So first we need to determine how many of each of the trainingbuildings are needed to operate all ar 100 % (the lowest value of this would be good). After that we need to know how many of each other buildings we need to supply this training. To be as Precise as possible it would be good to have the output rate of heros in this configuration as a further equalizing factor. These number had to be fit into the row where initially all numbers are set to 1. This initial value was chosen to check whether my formulas in the sheet work. But the final goal was to have real numbers there. From my perspective we could use real numbers insteasd of integers to reflect the proportion if needed. Doing so we will have finally the value of all building material needed for a working economy.
Of course I know we could figure all these things from the lua files to be very exact. But this is a pretty pain to do so I was hoping our very advanced players should have a feeling or a thumbrule for this values which could lead to a first bunch of numbers which could probably be implemented for Build 20. So just share your secret Knowledge with me. face-wink.png

Why do you think that I've gotten some secret knowledge? ;-) If something is pain for you, you could still avoid doing it.

What's the point of this concept where you have 1 building of each type? I think that it doesn't fit to the real gameplay...

this was just an intermediate step to get a feeling for the problem and to spot some real obvious unbalances. the final goal was always to have the costs for the economy as a basis for balancing.

Okay...

Will add it to the list and create another excel sheet.

Okay

Excel is under construction will be finished probably tonight. Already spotted some weird things in the mines definition for the other tribes. Will share as soon as it is finished. You could use this for your task as well. Hope I get some numbers for my build cost excel in exchange: face-smile.png

How can I use it for my task? Should I do more than what I plan to do? I'll check every lua file anyway and see what will be wrong there face-wink.png

hessenfarmer wrote:

Ok excel is up Mines seem to be very strange. Although frisians are not that disadvantaged that much. After looking at the spreadsheet I really support the task of WorldSavior to troubleshoot them. HAve a look and you will se what I mean.

I consider your definition "cost per ware" as not very meaningful, as grain is more expensive than fish and products like rations are also more expensive than raw materials. In your sheet the numbers "cost per wares" of Atlanteans are two times bigger than they should be - and honey for Frisian deep mines is missing.

hessenfarmer wrote:

Just uploaded first version of the branch containing build cost, new farm cycle and training cost changes. Although had not tested it yet.

I don't know why your sheet says that 0,66 iron is returned by recycling somewhere. That confuses me.

The point that you suggest that frisian soldiers shouldn't get 3 swords of several kinds but only 2 is interesting. I think it makes sense. Will the system be changed like this?

"(...)

Soldier with one double-sword get's a long sword for his other hand. There is nothing to recycle this time.

The soldier replaces long sword by curved sword, keeps double-sword. Long sword gets recycled.

Soldier replaces curved sword by second double-sword, keeps the first double sword. Curved sword gets recycled."

By the way, am I the only one who thinks that curved swords don't fit to Frisians at all?

teppo wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

  • charcoal kilns are more effective which gives an advanteage on maps with few coal.

This advantage is also not big. Every frisian trainings step requires coal, and a top soldier requires 44 coal. But Atl: 25, Emp: 28, Bar: 33. So the advantage to require only 50% of wood for charcoal is not that big. And you need charcoal burners only in corner cases anyway...

I think there is an exception: Aqua farm needs a working clay pit nearby.

Sure? Isn't it enough for the aqua farm if the clay pit has once worked a little bit? I think I never saw aqua farms stop working when the clay pits did.

If there is little to moderate construction ongoing, the system could starve out of fish while the clay pits (and thus aqua farms) stay idle. Coal burners keep the system running in those cases.


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2018-05-04, 20:49

WorldSavior wrote:

Why do you think that I've gotten some secret knowledge? face-wink.png

Because you seem to know by heart exactly what to build in which ratio to have a working economy, this is a suggestion due to me watching some replays from the last tournament. Anyhow this was fishing for compliments face-wink.png Nevertheless I hoped you really would know by heart or have at least a very reliable feeling of the amount of each building we need. So if this is the case please add the numbers to the sheet and reupload it again. This doesn't need to be perfect but it would help a lot. Reason is I'd like to have this in Build 20 and our chieftain likes to have this build in the near future.

If something is pain for you, you could still avoid doing it.

In principle you may be right but in particular you aren't. I said I would take the task and this feels for me like a promise for the community. However I really could use some help to get the best into b20 we could. Yesterday I started to test my first revision where I had implemented the proposed changes excluding the mining.

Excel is under construction will be finished probably tonight. Already spotted some weird things in the mines definition for the other tribes. Will share as soon as it is finished. You could use this for your task as well. Hope I get some numbers for my build cost excel in exchange: face-smile.png

How can I use it for my task? Should I do more than what I plan to do? I'll check every lua file anyway and see what will be wrong there face-wink.png

I just thought it might be helpful as you can easily play with the numbers and see results in the sheet to finetune the values of the programs. But of course you are free to ignore it. I just wanted to say it is free tu be used for whatever task it is helpful.

I consider your definition "cost per ware" as not very meaningful, as grain is more expensive than fish and products like rations are also more expensive than raw materials. In your sheet the numbers "cost per wares" of Atlanteans are two times bigger than they should be - and honey for Frisian deep mines is missing.

It was just an idea to have another value for balancing, although I knew that for example production time is not taken into account for this. You are right about the Atlanteans values - they are wrong due to an error in my formula. I wanted to decompose the food to their basic ingredients to cope for the difference between raw and refined, but I summed up all basic ingredients for bread and for smoked fish ( it is cell I3 inthe sheet) instead of seperating them As well as honey is missing - thanks for the review. Some questions in return:
Could you think about another concept to measure cost for mining? Why is grain more expensive than fish? I really don't understand that but should to make this work so please help me out.

I don't know why your sheet says that 0,66 iron is returned by recycling somewhere. That confuses me.

I took the consumption of a weapon (or armor) and the returned value of materials in the same training cycle and calculated therefore the value of return per weapon item. The 0.66 is resulting from a weapon returning mixed metal which is 0.5 of gold and 0.5 of iron. together with a returned iron this leads into such numbers. But I wanted to have the return for recycling bound to the item to see how the values change.

The point that you suggest that frisian soldiers shouldn't get 3 swords of several kinds but only 2 is interesting. I think it makes sense. Will the system be changed like this?

that depends on acceptance by our chieftain and Nordfriese and the rest of the community as well.

Soldier with one double-sword get's a long sword for his other hand. There is nothing to recycle this time.

The soldier replaces long sword by curved sword, keeps double-sword. Long sword gets recycled.

Soldier replaces curved sword by second double-sword, keeps the first double sword. Curved sword gets recycled."

That is exactly what I thought when doing the change although I have to admit I missed the point that for the first training there is nothing to recycle. But this can be incorporated easily.

By the way, am I the only one who thinks that curved swords don't fit to Frisians at all?

I have no opinion on this.

Sure? Isn't it enough for the aqua farm if the clay pit has once worked a little bit? I think I never saw aqua farms stop working when the clay pits did.

No the holes that a clay pit dug vanish by the time running. Due the clay pit itself needs fresh places to dig. So no working clay pit - no working aqua farm. I really had this issue in my run on the Nile.

It's good to see that somebody has at least had a look into my numbers. would be very helpful if someone can playtest the branch and help me with the other numbers as well. Perhaps wait till tomorrow as I need to fix the training and the sheets. Every comment and suggestion is appreciated.
In my test round yesterday the real bottleneck was fur as it is only produced onc in a while in the reindeer farm. So I had the idea to let the hunter deliver some fur as well. For example let's say he delivers fur every second time he has hunted some game. This doesn't fix the need for a good couple of reindeer farms but gives soldier training a kickstart in the early game. What do you think?


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2018-05-04, 23:52

Ok I fixed the excel sheets for training and mining and reuploaded them to the bug.
Also I changed the training program from attack 3 to attack 4 not to deliver a scrap metal. Finally the hunter is delivering a fur every second hunting cycle.

testing and evaluating theoretical numbers would be highly appreciated.


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Tinker
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Posted at: 2018-05-05, 10:31

I had suggested hunters should deliver fur depending on what animal they caught last year but nobody seemed interested in reworking the hunter then. It seemed illogical to get one meat from a rabbit and the same from an ox and if the hunter knew what he had caught then adding fur or leather to his production would be simple. I also suggested that as it was not possible to know what he had caught then supplying an occasional fur would simulate him hunting reindeer. Every second cycle seems to much, one in five might be more realistic.


The only way to prevent a mass extinction event is to remove homo sapiens, or stupiditus, from the planet. It may be to late for this final solution though.

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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2018-05-05, 11:45

The animals could get an attribute "furry" if we want to go the "realistic" route here, but then we would still need some engine changes. I don't want to add any more engine changes before Build 20 - I have already put a lot of my own features that I wanted for it on the back burner so that we can get it out sometime this year.


Busy indexing nil values

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2018-05-05, 14:18

I don't think we need to be super realistic in this case. I only suggested this because frisians are very slow in the beginning to train soldiers and one of the bottlenecks is fur production. So the whole thing is to give the fur production a little kickstart and the best solution other than starting wares is the hunter delivering some fur. However this is very limited as the frisians can't raise game so it doesn't affect the later game where you definitly need a lot of reindeer farms to produce fur. I think this makes the solution charming as it doesn't affect the charakter of the tribe and the challenges that this tribe has. Due to the limited amount of game I thought every second cycle would be a good value maybe every third. But I think if only every 5th cycle fur is produced the effect is to small to really help them to be more competitive in the early game.
@tinker: perhaps you could download the data dir of my branch and test it


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2018-05-05, 20:14

I looked at the branch now, didn´t test it yet. Changes mostly look good to me, a few suggestions:

  • I think the changed training sites buildcost has rather too few reed for a lot of bricks. Perhaps you could add more reed and/or remove some bricks.

  • Just to check I understood the new attack training system correctly: The training camp is unchanged. The first training step in the training arena is that the soldier gets 1 long sword and keeps his double sword; next he gives up the long sword and gets a curved one instead; next he gives up that one too and gets a second double-edged sword. While he´s in the training arena, he always has one double-edged sword. OK.

  • The farm will probably need lots of space to work efficiently, did you test these values yet?

  • Hunter: Producing fur every second cycle seems rather a lot, I´d suggest making it every 3rd or 4th cycle for now, and wait until after build20 to replace it with an engine change that allows to make fur production depend on whether the caught animal was tagged as furry.

  • I noticed that the training camp produces mixed scraps on the upgrade from long to curved sword. Why is that? Long swords contain no gold!

  • I´d prefer it if the reed farm costs at least 2 bricks, 1 is very cheap.

  • Having the brick kiln produce 3 bricks at once will be a real disadvantage when clay is short. Also, 9 is a large number of wares to store in a building. And only 1/3 coal and 1/3 granite per brick seems a bit cheap to me. I´d prefer to keep it as it is.

Other than that, everything looks good to me. Thanks for doing this face-smile.png


By the way, am I the only one who thinks that curved swords don't fit to Frisians at all?

I wouldn´t be opposed to changing them to some other type of sword if there is a better suggestion…


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2018-05-05, 22:03

Nordfriese wrote:

I looked at the branch now, didn´t test it yet.

Did you have a look at the excel sheets I uploaded to the bug as well? I'm asking cause the changes are based on the values there.

  • I think the changed training sites buildcost has rather too few reed for a lot of bricks. Perhaps you could add more reed and/or remove some bricks.

Ok I will exchange one brick for one reed for each of them. I wanted to reduce the need for reed in the overall building cost but overshooted for this two buildings as I added bricks to keep the total number up.

  • Just to check I understood the new attack training system correctly: The training camp is unchanged. The first training step in the training arena is that the soldier gets 1 long sword and keeps his double sword; next he gives up the long sword and gets a curved one instead; next he gives up that one too and gets a second double-edged sword. While he´s in the training arena, he always has one double-edged sword. OK.

Exactly this is the story to reduce the need for iron and coal in training soldiers to get to a comparable level with the other tribes. It was the easiest way to achieve this and the best explainable change.

  • The farm will probably need lots of space to work efficiently, did you test these values yet?

Yes I did test it. It needs 7 fields to work at a 100% level. this is just 3 more than other farms. Although in the beginning it uses more than that if possible cause as the barley still grows very slow there are many harvest cycles skipped and the farmer uses the "leisure" time to plant more fields. I think if placed properly the farms will work well. And the need to do so is a real feature of the frisians, cause otherwise it would be too easy. I was thinking about increasing the radius of the farm as well but I don't think we need to do so.

  • Hunter: Producing fur every second cycle seems rather a lot, I´d suggest making it every 3rd or 4th cycle for now, and wait until after build20 to replace it with an engine change that allows to make fur production depend on whether the caught animal was tagged as furry.

If there would be endless ressources of game it would be definitly too much to have it every second cycle. But on most maps there might be only 20 animal within reach of the hunter. so this delivers an additional 10 fur in the beginning to let the seamstress start her work and get experience (she needs 14 fur to get promoted) until the reindeer farms are finally working. (this needs a lot of time due to the slow growing barley). Of course you could use this for a little fur boost in the later game especially when you are close to a barbarian border, but this would need very clever gameplay and could be awarded therefore. However probably we could live with a value of every 3rd cycle if we reduce the needed experience to 10 probably. What I don't want is adding starting wares or starting workers so we need values that would ensure we can train a hero in sufficient time. So please reconsider the values from this point of view that we need to have the seamstress promoted in a reasonable time. Anyhow I will try a value of 2 and a value of 3 as well.

  • I noticed that the training camp produces mixed scraps on the upgrade from long to curved sword. Why is that? Long swords contain no gold!

this is an error in my thinking. I didn't get the scrap rules right as WorldSavior already found out. Now I think I got it. I will adjust the values accordingly and let you recheck them.

  • I´d prefer it if the reed farm costs at least 2 bricks, 1 is very cheap.

I didn't want it to cost more than 4 wares in total, cause it is a small building. Would it be ok to have 1 additional brick in exchange for the granite resulting in 2 bricks 1 log and 1 reed?

  • Having the brick kiln produce 3 bricks at once will be a real disadvantage when clay is short. Also, 9 is a large number of wares to store in a building. And only 1/3 coal and 1/3 granite per brick seems a bit cheap to me. I´d prefer to keep it as it is.

the reason for this was that the frisians really are coal addicts. they need a lot of coal. The reduction in granite was mainly due to the rockmines not being over efficient and there might be maps with little rocks. Clay however is endless and ensuring a good clay supply is one key issue in having a prosperous settlement. In my excel i decomposed advanced building materials into their components and making brick a bit cheaper helped for the numbers being comparable to other tribes. From what I see in the excel the frisians are the only tribe where the main building material is a refined one. So cheap is relative I think. The intention was to make it less expensive. As for the storage I have no objections to have it reduced to 6. This would mean you need to have a warehouse or clay pit nearby and that would fit into the frisians being a tribe where you need to think where you place your building in relation to others. So I would give it a try.

Other than that, everything looks good to me. Thanks for doing this face-smile.png

Thanks for your opinion on the changes. I really appreciate it and I think we'll find good compromises and values that will allow them to be competitive. (but perhaps this will not be completely the case for b20)

By the way, am I the only one who thinks that curved swords don't fit to Frisians at all?

I wouldn´t be opposed to changing them to some other type of sword if there is a better suggestion…

Would be ok for me as it would only cause small rework on the translation site. face-wink.png


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