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Topic: Suggestion to change collector win condition

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DragonAtma
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Joined: 2014-09-14, 00:54
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 Posted at: 2015-05-05, 19:38

I've played a grand total of zero collector games (I only play endless, AKA "eliminate the CPUs"), so I have no clue if this suggestion is useful or not, but...

What if you listed scores not for individual wares, but for types of wares? Then, each player would have only four categories: Gold, Weapons, Armor/Shields, and Total.

I'd also consider tiny amounts (say, a tenth of a point, rounded down) for currently useless types, but again, I have no experience with Collectors, so I have no clue if that would unbalance things too much. I do, however, have experience with how a basic wares shortage (say, wood) could screw up everything else, so I can see having a small score for avoiding production bottlenecks.

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teppo

Joined: 2012-01-30, 08:42
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 Posted at: 2015-05-05, 20:24

GunChleoc wrote:

This adding a bit for all wares would be interesting for gameplay, but I am wondering how we could represent this in the GUI then.... ....Displaying a full list then would involve endless scrolling.

There is already a window (statistics - wares - wares in warehouse) that does just it. That combined with a victory point graph should do it. No need to replicate that.

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Mars

Joined: 2009-03-28, 09:26
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Posted at: 2015-05-05, 21:46

What about just counting raw materials for deciding on points for wares and add a bonus depending on the number of raw materials needed, e.g.

  • 0-4 raw materials: +0
  • 5-7 raw materials: +1
  • more than 8 raw materials: +2

Examples:

  • Some heavy weapon: 2 gold, 2 iron, 2 coal, 1 wood. that makes 6 coal, 2 iron ore and 2 gold ore and 1 wood, in total 11 raw materials + 2 bonus = 13 pt
  • Golden Tabard: 1 gold + 1 tabard => 1 coal, 1 iron ore, one spideryarn, no bonus = 3 pt
  • intermediate weapon: 2 coal, 2 iron => 4 coal and 2 iron ore + 1 bonus = 7 pt
  • Gold: 1 gold => 1 gold ore + 1 coal = 2pt
  • Iron: 1 iron => 1 iron ore + 1 coal => 2pt

This system is fair in that sense that iron and gold are treated equally (which makes sense since feeding them is equally expensive). However, to obtain the bonus, you have to create wares that require gold. This means we do not make gold more worthy by itself, but in connection with other wares.

The time or number of steps should also not be included in the point calcutations since in most cases time is not the limiting factor but ressources to supply the mines or the number of mines possible in one's territory.

Edited: 2015-05-05, 21:47
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teppo

Joined: 2012-01-30, 08:42
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 Posted at: 2015-05-06, 05:11

Mars: In my opinion, your suggestion sounds straightforward.

It also sounds complex and error-prone,unless the victory condition consults the actual conf files to do the math, instead of using, say, pre-built tables that could easily drift out-of-sync later on.

How to rate rations and coal, for example? Multiple possible sources (mine/burner), unequal amounts of source material.

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Mars

Joined: 2009-03-28, 09:26
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Posted at: 2015-05-06, 09:13

You have the same problem with the current situation where the points are hard-coded in the source code. We could also do this with my proposal.

I would only assign points to weapons and armors, maybe to gold and iron as well (although it might be worth considering removing points for iron and gold). This means food itself is worth no points and it does not matter how coal is created or what is needed to produce a gold ore.

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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2015-05-06, 11:00

We could start building up our calculations based on coal/iron/gold, and wood/plans, and cloth/spideryarn/gold thread.

Points should be gained only for wares that all 3 tribes use for weapons/armor production - e.g. the Barbarians don't use cloth except for shipyards, so having a Weaving Mill for non-seafaring maps wouldn't make sense. At the moment, we award points for gold an weapons/armor only, and I think we could keep it this way.

So, for

  • weapon/armor: points = xcoal + yiron + zgold + w(wood or planks or cloth or spideryarn or gold thread).
  • gold: points = z*gold

At the moment, we will need to hard-code this. Anything else will need C++ engine changes - they might be possible after we have the one_tribe branch finished, but that's going to take a while.

Busy indexing nil values

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teppo

Joined: 2012-01-30, 08:42
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 Posted at: 2015-05-06, 15:37

GunChleoc wrote:

At the moment, we will need to hard-code this. Anything else will need C++ engine changes

geometric mean -like victory points would not need anything like that.

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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2015-05-06, 18:10

teppo wrote:

GunChleoc wrote:

At the moment, we will need to hard-code this. Anything else will need C++ engine changes

geometric mean -like victory points would not need anything like that.

I meant tracing the costs through back through the production programs in order not to hard-code stuff. face-smile.png

Busy indexing nil values

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teppo

Joined: 2012-01-30, 08:42
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 Posted at: 2015-05-06, 20:05

GunChleoc wrote:

I meant tracing the costs through back through the production programs in order not to hard-code stuff. face-smile.png

Fully understood. I do not feel strongly about this, despite repeating my opinion many times over.

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einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-28, 23:01
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Posted at: 2015-05-06, 20:27

Mars wrote:

  • 0-4 raw materials: +0
  • 5-7 raw materials: +1
  • more than 8 raw materials: +2

So I took your idea and described below. Please check if everything is as you wanted (please check the calculations).

  • Golden Tabard: 1 gold + 1 tabard => 1 coal, 1 iron ore, one spideryarn, no bonus = 3 pt

I thought that Golden Tabard is made of gold and spider yarns, not gold and iron...

Barbarians

Weapon Coal Iron Gold Current pts Einstein Mars
Gold - - 1 3 3 2
Axe 1 1 - 2 2 3
Sharpaxe 1 2 - 3 3 6
Broadaxe 2 2 - 4 4 7
Bronzeaxe 2 2 - 4 4 7
Battleaxe 1 2 1 6 6 8
Warriorsaxe 2 2 2 10 12 12
Helmet 1 1 - 2 2 3
Mask 1 2 - 3 3 6
Warhelmet 1 2 1 6 7 8

Empire

Weapon Coal Iron Gold Wood/Cloth Current pts Einstein Mars
Gold - - 1 - 3 3 2
Wood lance - - - 1 1 1 1
Lance 1 1 - 1 3 2 3
Advance lance 1 2 - 1 4 4 6
Heavy lance 2 1 1 1 7 7 8
War lance 2 2 1 1 8 9 11
Helm 1 1 - - 2 2 3
Armor 1 1 - 1 3 2 3
Chain armor 1 2 - 1 4 4 6
Plate armor 2 2 1 1 8 9 11

Atlanteans

Weapon Coal Iron Gold/ Goldyarn Plank/ Spideryarn Current pts Einstein Mars
Gold - - 1 - 3 3 2
Light trident - 1 - 1 2 2 2
Long trident 1 1 - 1 3 2 4
Steel trident 1 2 - 1 4 4 5
Double trident 2 1 1 1 7 7 8
Heavy double trident 2 2 1 1 8 9 11
Steel shield 2 2 - - 4 4 7
Advanced shield 2 2 1 - 7 8 10
Tabard - - - 1 1 1 1
Golden tabard - - 1 1 5 4 3

@king_of_nowhere: I've changed my mind about golden tabard. It should be 4 points, as you said face-smile.png

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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