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Topic: Make the Axefactory buildable?

Forums » Player Forums » Game Suggestions » Make the Axefactory buildable?



Astuur
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Joined: 2009-02-28, 12:08
Posts: 733
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One Elder of Players
Location: Frankfurt / Germany
Posted at: 2012-03-08, 09:31

The Barbarian Axefactory

What, if your really come to think of it, is the use of a building, that must be upgraded, when you can upgrade it immediately, need no new building materials and have no additional requirements for the worker?

Couldn't we just as well make it buildable from the start with the combined build cost? (Metalworks + upgrade cost)
The way it currently works, it is just a pitfall for new players, who forget that you lose the tool production, when you upgrade.

Or am I overlooking something?


Being no programmer, I apologize for all my suggestions that imply undue workload and for other misjudgements due to lack of expertise or relevant skills.
I am on Win32, have no means to compile, and rely on prefabricated distributions (Thanks to Tino).

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Nasenbaer
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Joined: 2009-02-21, 20:17
Posts: 825
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Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-03-08, 22:57

Okay you are now official my counterparty on the "keep it complex" front of Widelands face-wink.png

I kind of see your point, that it might look unlogical for new users. However:

The way it currently works, it is just a pitfall for new players, who forget that you lose the tool production, when you upgrade. Or am I overlooking something?

Indeed SirVer and I talked about that (or a similiar) topic quite some time back, when we were splitting the ware "axe" to "felling_axe" and "axe". The problem we faced back than was an unbalance in early games, when barbarians were able to transform all starting material immediately into axes and produce as whole bunch of soldiers and were able to rush over a none barbarian tribe next to them shortly after the begin of the game.

The solution of that problem was an indirect "late initialization" of the axefactory - that's at least one major reason why the axefactory should not be buildable directly. face-smile.png


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Astuur
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Joined: 2009-02-28, 12:08
Posts: 733
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Location: Frankfurt / Germany
Posted at: 2012-03-09, 08:24

Nasenbaer wrote:
Okay you are now official my counterparty on the "keep it complex" front of Widelands

Nah, Peter -- I don't think I am, nor do I want to be face-smile.png
In fact I'd mostly vote for complexity, wherever it is fun to try out the variations offered.

I clearly see the concept of an early-onset tribe for the barbarians, and I enjoy it as part of WL diversity.
I am undecided about this being overpowered or not, so I just trust your judgement in this.
But if you think you need to delay the axefactory somewhat to keep it balanced, does it really help to delay it for just the time it takes to upgrade the building?

Would it not be better to introduce a Chief-Blacksmith as an in-between qualification, and so have the Blacksmiths similar to the miners?

This would then be: Blacksmith in Metalworks -> Chief Blacksmith in Axefactory -> Master Blacksmith in Warmill

It would also allow an easy further finetuning by adjusting the requirement for the worker qualification.
How's that?


Being no programmer, I apologize for all my suggestions that imply undue workload and for other misjudgements due to lack of expertise or relevant skills.
I am on Win32, have no means to compile, and rely on prefabricated distributions (Thanks to Tino).

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alocritani
Joined: 2011-11-24, 15:03
Posts: 55
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Location: Trento, Italy
Posted at: 2012-03-09, 15:45

Astuur, I like your idea of chief blacksmith - the first time I played I was expecting it is in that way (3 buildings - 3 roles).

I think it wouldn't be difficult to implement (it should be quite easy, indeed - maybe I'll try it on a branch, just to have same playable examples in order to understand if it balances/unbalances the game) but I'm not sure if it will break compatibility with older savegames.


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alocritani
Joined: 2011-11-24, 15:03
Posts: 55
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Location: Trento, Italy
Posted at: 2012-03-10, 11:28

I've created a bug report and a branch.

in bug report you can find a zip files with changed files, so you can test it even without using bzr.


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SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 17:18
Posts: 1324
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Location: Germany - Munich
Posted at: 2012-03-10, 15:43

The axefactory was changed recently for balance (to make barbarians a little big weaker in the early game) [1]. I see this bug suggestion as two individuals

  1. make axefactory buildable directly (not an enhancement of metalworkshop). I am against this, because it is a difference in the way the barbarians work. In fact, I usually build a metalworkshop quickly to get the initial tools which lack me (felling axes, mostly to avoid the initial wood shortage that happens otherwise) and enhance this to an axefactory to get axes quickly (and I live for a while without a metalworkshop). This is very efficient way to get quickly into axe production - which is important imho, because the barbarians should be aggressive early as they get harder to keep strong the longer the game becomes. So I am -1 for making it an directly buildable building: it would kill this strategy which no other tribe can do.

  2. I am also -1 for the chief blacksmith. The reason is the following: if you need an advanced worker, the axefactory is delayed for sure; there is nothing that the player can do to build it earlier. Your first X iron will go into tools, sorry, no way around that - you need the experience for your worker. But a risky strategy is to build your axefactory immediately and stock pile axes - this has a pretty high cost: you usually run into a wood shortage and you need longer to establish a economic growth - but you have a stronger military force early on and you can attack early. If your opponent manages to fend off your initial 2 or 3 waves of attack you might be done with, but those waves can contain 10 more soldiers or so.

The only benefit I see is symmetry to the mines which is not such a strong argument in my view. I stay conservative and say: do not change anything at this point in time.

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/667286


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alaric
Joined: 2012-03-23, 21:18
Posts: 1
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Just found this site
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted at: 2012-03-23, 21:38

Hi. How about the following suggestion: 1. Keep the axefactory as upgradable from the metalwork shop, AND 2. Add the option to build the axefactory directly.

Since (in build 16) you can already upgrade the metalwork shop immediately after building it, this does not affect game balance. But it does remove an unnecessary micromanagement hassle for the player that wants to build an axefactory and not a metalwork shop.

As it is (build 16), if you want to build an axefactory, you have to watch the metalwork shop like a hawk and upgrade immediately after completion, or else your workers will load up the shop with precious raw materials that you will lose when you upgrade. (I don't imagine that this micromanagement hassle is intended as part of the game balance, but I may be wrong)

This would still allow players like SirVer to build the metalwork shop first, then upgrade. And it would make it easier for players who want an axefactory first (or want multiple axefactories and only one metalwork shop, or prefer to play without metalwork shops, etc.)


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