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Topic: Balance issue with the imperials

SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
Posts: 1438
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Location: Germany - Munich
Posted at: 2010-04-21, 18:05

Astuur, I see the empire very competitive in the early game because training the two levels of evade is so damn cheap. They are quite competitive. I can't make anything from this discussion at this moment - real comparement can only happen through win/loose statistics of many games.


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Dwarik
Joined: 2009-05-11, 17:50
Posts: 42
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2010-04-21, 23:17

I agree with you (megalive) that ballancing is something that should be looked at. the question however becomes how and when.

For one thing, trainingcamp i often consider an 'advanced' structure and save for later on. (your first pile of stone doesn't have to cover that cost). however a 2nd forester is for me a must right off.

And i'm not saying that we should change a lot in our current ballance, but these questions might be interesting in designing a map (or set of maps) that is fair for all sides and would provide a good template for say testing AI.

and if we could make a list of requirement that each tribe would need for have a good start certainly would be interesting.


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Nasenbaer
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Joined: 2009-02-21, 18:17
Posts: 829
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Location: Germany
Posted at: 2010-04-23, 09:26

@megalive: okay I see, however the calculation is not that significant, as you can not control what a quarry produces (whether it produces marble or normal stone from a rock). So the value of actually needed rocks might be even higher.

However, we already did, what you propose (excel calculation with build costs, build times of the different buildings, production times and costs of the different wares, tools and weapons, etc....) - of course it is possible, that there are still some minor unbalanced parts, but overall there should not be a balancing problem - just play some online matches with different players, different tribes on different maps, or watch some computer players only games - you will soon see, that every tribe has (nearly) the same chance to win the game.

So this is not a general "no" from me for minor tweaks or fine tuning. All I want to say is, that a complete rebalance of build costs would necessitate to go through all tribes and change the buildcost for a whole bunch of buildings. The last time we balanced the tribes to have a fair tribe set, it took us some weeks of testing, and test playing to get the fine tuning done - the problem in that case is, that you have to calculate every production cylce + their costs, costs of the buildings, etc. of a tribe and compare it with every other production cycle of the same tribe + all of the other tribes.

From my point of view, I see no reason for a new rebalancing, as all tribes are well playable. As I wrote above, small tweaks are of course up to discussion, but I am sure, that the real problem you faced, can actually be found in the map designs and not in the tribes building costs.

I am currently working on improving and fixing the existing maps, so if you find a specific map, where you see an unbalanced resource placement, now would be the right time to write those down as well, so I can start working on it ;).


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ixprefect
Joined: 2009-02-27, 14:28
Posts: 367
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Posted at: 2010-04-23, 11:18

Where can one find those spreadsheets?


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Astuur
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Joined: 2009-02-28, 10:08
Posts: 733
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Location: Frankfurt / Germany
Posted at: 2010-04-23, 11:31

SirVer wrote: Astuur, I see the empire very competitive in the early game because training the two levels of evade is so damn cheap. They are quite competitive. I can't make anything from this discussion at this moment - real comparement can only happen through win/loose statistics of many games.

Guess, it depends on what you call "early" in a game, SirVer face-smile.png

Once you have your colosseum working effectivly, and can support it, the worst is behind you. But till then, The Empire has a harder start than the other tribes.

This comes from a number of reasons. Most prominent IMO is that the ratio of granite/marble from quarries is so poor in relation to their needs (only 28.6% marble). If anything at all, I'd change that.

But I don't want to open a detailed discussion on the numbers here. For one thing, you're right: judging by experience from playing is better (and more fun) than trying to evaluate the many advantages and disadvantages that automatically come from the characteristics of the different tribes. For another, Nasenbaer (mostly him, I understand) has done this already and left us with a working system free from obvious disbalances. Other solutions for balancing are possible, but their superiority needs to be proven.

I may well be partly because my own preferences (always building a toolsmith early, preference for larger military sites) that I judge the Empire as a bit problematic in an early (or very early if you will) stage. But I think some truth still remains in my judgement.

The nice thing is, that you can experiment so well by editing the conf files face-smile.png


Being no programmer, I apologize for all my suggestions that imply undue workload and for other misjudgements due to lack of expertise or relevant skills.
I am on Win32, have no means to compile, and rely on prefabricated distributions (Thanks to Tino).

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timowi
Joined: 2009-11-01, 23:08
Posts: 146
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At home in WL-forums
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2010-04-23, 11:42

I see only one balance issue with empire (that is true for atlanteans too): They definitely need a marble mine. If you have a map without or with not enough stone (in the mountains) you have a problem. Currently there is almost no alternative way to get marble. The only possibility is to build a marble mine somewhere and use the rest chance. With a chance of 5% you get some marble or stone. It's almost impossible to build a economy with that. Would be nice if there is an alternative way to get (or produce) marble. For example the rest chance of enhanced mines could be higher.


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Nasenbaer
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Joined: 2009-02-21, 18:17
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Posted at: 2010-04-23, 11:54

ixprefect wrote: Where can one find those spreadsheets?

I already searched after writing my post. I was sure that I uploaded it to the media svn - obviously I did not. :-/ I'll ask WolfPac as soon as I see him online again, whether he still got a copy - he transfered all the tribe data to that excel sheet.


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Astuur
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Joined: 2009-02-28, 10:08
Posts: 733
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Location: Frankfurt / Germany
Posted at: 2010-04-23, 12:10

timowi wrote: I see only one balance issue with empire (that is true for atlanteans too): They definitely need a marble mine...

And when you accept that they need it quite early, the whole wine business is needed, too. (preferably 3 vineyards and 1 winery).

That's where often space limitations strike, especially as the Empire also needs another piggery for reliable meat supply and another well.... On some maps you're really challenged...but as I said, I like the tribe all the same face-smile.png


Being no programmer, I apologize for all my suggestions that imply undue workload and for other misjudgements due to lack of expertise or relevant skills.
I am on Win32, have no means to compile, and rely on prefabricated distributions (Thanks to Tino).

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