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Topic: early advanced soldier gameplay balance

ypopezios
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Posted at: 2018-10-08, 10:20

king_of_nowhere wrote:

oh, I finally get what you're saying.

Seems that you get the problem, but you don't get the solution, neither its implications. Most importantly, you don't care about a solution, so I won't bother explaining it further. Moreover, we have again the phenomenon of an idea getting both reactions "it won't change anything" and "it will change everything". The truth is that it will change something and leave the rest intact, but people try to sound heavy, while actually meaning "just don't touch my game". Some people even comment about the needed changes in code, without understanding what they are talking about. Widelands may get fixed, but its community won't.

Back to the topic, if the desire is to delay advanced soldiers, there are many ways to do it. The proposed way is to create a train of trainers of trainers. But we can achieve the same result by simply increasing the training times of the various levels of soldiers. It is equivalent, cause in both cases a building is busy consuming resources and producing upgrades. It doesn't matter how many of them and how we name them, what only matters is the total cost in resources and time. In other words, would you support forbidding the construction of a fortress before the construction of a number of smaller military buildings? It is the same thing. Just increase the resources and time needed for its construction and you have the same result. I don't see why someone would go the complicated way, unless they are full of desperation of implementing something and they are out of ideas. As far as I know, we don't have such coders in Widelands.


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2018-10-08, 11:04

ypopezios wrote:

Some people even comment about the needed changes in code, without understanding what they are talking about.

ypopezios wrote:

But we can achieve the same result by simply increasing the training times of the various levels of soldiers. It is equivalent, cause in both cases a building is busy consuming resources and producing upgrades. It doesn't matter how many of them and how we name them, what only matters is the total cost in resources and time.

It is funny that you've told both sentences in one post face-smile.png .

So maybe I will try to explain: currently we have achieved a point where somebody (WorldSavior) found a solution how to create a fully trained soldiers in the strongest tribe (according to soldiers power) in the shortest time ever (was it 34 minutes?). This solution doesn't contain building whole economy from starting point to the end of production. Only needed parts. So if you want to increase only timings, that will not solve anything here, since the solution will not change. You will be able to use it by applying the same actions with the same order, but with different timing. Also creating first supersoldier will be even more powerful, since he is almost immortal in comparison to other soldiers in that time.

So what are we looking for? We are looking for a solution that will force players to make full working economy with all possible production lines in order to make a supersoldiers. Also possibility to make only one of them before anybody else should be much harder than before.

And, yes, it will not change type of the game you were complaining recently about. However, it will change the point of the game a bit. It will be for sure more economy-like than before.


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2018-10-08, 15:02

ypopezios wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

oh, I finally get what you're saying.

Seems that you get the problem, but you don't get the solution, neither its implications. Most importantly, you don't care about a solution, so I won't bother explaining it further. Moreover, we have again the phenomenon of an idea getting both reactions "it won't change anything" and "it will change everything". The truth is that it will change something and leave the rest intact, but people try to sound heavy, while actually meaning "just don't touch my game". Some people even comment about the needed changes in code, without understanding what they are talking about. Widelands may get fixed, but its community won't.

Meaning: everyone disagreeing with you is wrong. If only people stopped being so blind and started to think as you do...

No thanks. I get the problem and the solution and its implications, but I don't think the solution will actually fix the problem. The bigger economy wins anyway. The bigger economy can make more soldier and can pay more maintenance costs for more soldiers, so the linear strategy "have better economy -> victory" remains.

And people are fully entitled to like the game as it is (or close enough) without you not-so-subtly belittling them for it. Different games cater to different niches of players.

Plus, it seems that now you are not understanding the problem I was posing, which einstein summed up perfectly, as you never tried to address it. Heck, even if we implemented your ideas, that specific problem would still be there. a single soldier can't have that high a maintenance cost, so the optimal strategy of rushing a supersoldier in 35 minutes and winning with it would still be there. And if we slowed training times, it would become maybe 40 minutes instead.


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ypopezios
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Posted at: 2018-10-08, 16:41

@king_of_nowhere

I'm sorry that you are that much interested in my opinion about you. As I said, I won't address your lack of understanding any further. But since your hurt feelings make you inverse the truth on who isolates himself here, I'm just going to remind you that this thread had practically stalled, because:

  • Your analysis of tribe-balancing problems is no more relevant in build 20.
  • Even people who liked your suggestion (complexity was the only provided reason), noticed how inapplicable it is because of Atlanteans.
  • Most people (a minimum of 4) joined the discussion only to express their overall dislike for the game's focus on military domination. They don't share your enthusiasm and (as you said) they are fully entitled to that.

It was only at this point that I decided to join the conversation myself, in order to address that overall issue, and not your suggestion. So, I apologize for reviving your thread (and for a while raising its level), and I wish you good luck in keeping it alive (the thread, cause the suggestion is hopeless). @einstein13's sense of humour could help with that.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2018-10-09, 17:03

ypopezios wrote:

@king_of_nowhere

  • Your analysis of tribe-balancing problems is no more relevant in build 20.

Not true. Atlanteans still can make a supersoldier in 35 minutes, empire in around one hour and barbarians in well more than one hours. This, the main problem, still stands.

  • Even people who liked your suggestion (complexity was the only provided reason), noticed how inapplicable it is because of Atlanteans.
  • Most people (a minimum of 4) joined the discussion only to express their overall dislike for the game's focus on military domination. They don't share your enthusiasm and (as you said) they are fully entitled to that.

That's fine, but they offered no solution. At the moment, this game IS about the military, and so balancing the military is immportant. Not liking the military won't make the problem "military imbalance" magically go away.

It was only at this point that I decided to join the conversation myself, in order to address that overall issue, and not your suggestion. So, I apologize for reviving your thread (and for a while raising its level), and I wish you good luck in keeping it alive (the thread, cause the suggestion is hopeless). @einstein13's sense of humour could help with that.

Yes, I know most people don't care about the argument there. Probably because me and worldsavior are the only people who can use those tactics effectively, so most people won't care about a strategy that is only used by two people. there's not enough interest in the topic. I havo no problem with this, and this thread had died over a week ago.

Where I have a problem is with your attitude towards condescension for all those that don't share your opinion.

And I may point out that for all those points you raised here, you already made a thread around one month ago, and your suggestions were already rejected?

But reallly, I'd be fine with you hijacking my thread to revive the debate you had a month ago, if only you could refrain from telling everyone who disagrees with you that they don't understand and that they are bigotic conservatives.

I'll let this die now.

Edited: 2018-10-09, 17:04
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ypopezios
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Posted at: 2018-10-10, 00:09

@king_of_nowhere

Why did you write so many lies in a single post? I don't know if you are a good player in Widelands, the fact is that you are a horrible player in life. Time exposed your trash in the past, you didn't learn your lesson, so it will expose your new trash in the future. Threads die, but truth does not.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2018-10-10, 00:34

GunChleoc wrote:

I don't know. Prefering heroes would be a good start.

Maybe, but I don't consider it as necessary, because I don't have a problem with the micromanagement.

JanO wrote:

I guess this ultimate military focus could be shortened by allowing more than one win condition at a time. Consider a multiplayer match where autocrat AND wood gnome AND collector are active at the same time.

Autocrat is always active

ypopezios wrote:

Add some form of maintenance-costs for the existing soldiers.

For example, for each soldier periodically provide food, plus wages proportional to his rank. On failure to provide those:

  • Lack of wage demotes the soldier.
  • Lack of food sends the soldier back to civilian life (but if he reaches a warehouse, his weapons are saved).

In such a game, a super army can be maintained only by a super economy. Larger empires have a bigger challenge in sending on time food/wages to distant soldiers. Moreover:

  • Military buildings store food and wages. Soldiers consume those when their time comes. Therefore, disconnected military buildings cannot sustain their soldiers for long.
  • Unless for defense, a soldier leaves a military building only after eating (and maybe only after healing, which may consume more food).
  • Soldiers inside training buildings don't need wages.
  • Soldiers inside warehouses don't need maintenance, but they get gradually demoted (HQ can be an exception, in order to make final battle more challenging). Therefore, military buildings away from borders become useful in storing promoted soldiers.

Easier tribes could avoid either food (self-sustained soldiers) or wages (self-motivated soldiers). Balancing can be achieved by adjusting the time period between consecutive food/wages (i.e. self-sustained soldiers are paid more often, and self-motivated soldiers eat more often).

-1

Tinker wrote:

It is unfortunate that the only measure of the effectiveness of the economy is the strength of the army, trade and diplomacy would be better or at least equally important . A better range of win conditions would help as well and any improvement would need a leap in AI processes, AI needs at least to be capable of playing different win conditions.

So why don't you aim for teaching the AI different win conditions instead of aiming for changing the game drastically? Remember that the current game is the result of a lot of work of a lot of developers. So changing the official game a lot means also to destroy something, which can't be good.

ypopezios wrote:

If we really want to make economy as important as military, we have to tie them much more closely. There is a drastic feature to achieve that, which gives extra emphasis to logistics:

Add some form of maintenance-costs for the existing soldiers.

I really don't like the concept. It would be a big pain, especially on small maps where your food production is scarce.

The change I propose is, I believe, the best way to put more emphasis on economy and less on getting the first supersoldier, without severely changing the game

It would severely change the game. And we already have a big focus on economy on maps where the enemy is not so close.

ypopezios wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

it is still more effective to kill your opponent before he can achieve another win condition

Very true. However, alternative win-conditions are desirable when no side can dominate the map.

It would be a big pain, especially on small maps where your food production is scarce.

Either a big pain or a big challenge/fun.

No fun but something like pain

No pain no gain.

That saying is very questionable. For example I don't feel pain when I spend time with Widelands, but I gained to become the most successful player here.

einstein13 wrote:

I think that the change of gameplay should be in more than one ways.

From my perspective king_of_nowhere's idea about promoting trainers is very good and makes it hard to get level 10 soldiers. So that getting to this point is rather long-term. This probably will change the goal for most of the games (from reach supersoldiers and fight to make efficient economy to make supersoliders to fight).

But Ypopezios idea is quite interesting and makes the game even more exciting.

No!

But - as always - idea needs polishing. Food consumption is a very good idea, but wages as gold/iron inglots is too valuable for me.

Nope face-wink.png

ypopezios wrote:

The problem of many strategy games like Widelands is the single-point-of-success.

What's the definition of that at all?

But when it comes to experienced players, that phenomenon becomes very obvious and makes the game less interesting. Cause whoever gets the early advantage, will most probably win the game, no matter how many hours later.

Why do you mention that? Widelands is not like that. For example if you look at the last tournament match "tando-einstein", tando didn't only get the early advantage but a huge early advantage. But einstein won, so the game is not that simple.

In such close races, any little advantage gained by micromanagement can make all the difference (like in many formula-1 races, where cars make endless circles for many hours, but their finishing-order has been decided since the first-turn-decisions, or even earlier in the garage, since the alteration of some detail in some part of the car). And such a game-experience is no more strategy, it is racing with clicks (no need to mention how boring this is).

Widelands is much more complex than a race and it's for sure no "racing with clicks". You are discussing as if you would be an expert of the game but it looks for me that you aren't one.

ypopezios wrote:

By "single-point-of-success" we don't mean "single-victory-condition", neither "single-measurement-unit", neither "single-point-on-the-map" (they all start with "single", but they mean different things). The single-point-of-success in all the mentioned games is the point of military domination. That point can make mute every other point, and every other point serves that point. It doesn't matter if that domination refers to the whole map or to some parts of it. The points on the map can vary, but the single-point-of-success remains the same, having the potential to kill the interest early on, long before any player gets actually killed-in-game.

There are also games possible where you have a winner because of points (collector) / trees (woodgnome) / territory (territorial games).

It's not possible on every map to defeat an enemy within 4 hours.

Belonging to a different genre, Widelands is overall much better than both of those games, no matter it also suffers from the same issue.

I don't see where it suffers from that issue, or how you could achieve that it not suffers from that issue if that would be the case at all..

Tinker wrote:

The whole game needs a rethink, more types of building, more mangement decisions, more to do than just build armies,

No, it surely doesn't. Though new tribes would be welcome, if they are good and balanced. You can also play different win conditions, you don't have to build armies there. By the way, the trade system is planned, it will not change the game critically but it offers some potential.

king_of_nowhere wrote: I would like to see if there's some consensus on my proposal to force the production of several mildly upgraded soldiers before an advanced one can be made.

You seem to have overlooked that there is no consensus. I'm for making your ideas optional and non-default. Most of Widelands should stay as it is.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

ypopezios wrote:

@king_of_nowhere

  • Your analysis of tribe-balancing problems is no more relevant in build 20.

Not true. Atlanteans still can make a supersoldier in 35 minutes,

Really? Have you found a way to do that even though they need shields now?

empire in around one hour and barbarians in well more than one hours. This, the main problem, still stands.

I think you don't know how fast one can make them face-wink.png

It was only at this point that I decided to join the conversation myself, in order to address that overall issue, and not your suggestion. So, I apologize for reviving your thread (and for a while raising its level), and I wish you good luck in keeping it alive (the thread, cause the suggestion is hopeless). @einstein13's sense of humour could help with that.

Yes, I know most people don't care about the argument there. Probably because me and worldsavior are the only people who can use those tactics effectively, so most people won't care about a strategy that is only used by two people. there's not enough interest in the topic. I havo no problem with this, and this thread had died over a week ago.

Actually other people can be interested in the strategy as well and try to apply it.

ypopezios wrote:

@king_of_nowhere

I don't know if you are a good player in Widelands,

Why is it so hard to know if he is a good player? For me it looks like it's pretty obvious


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2018-10-10, 20:40

WorldSavior wrote:

@king_of_nowhere

Not true. Atlanteans still can make a supersoldier in 35 minutes,

Really? Have you found a way to do that even though they need shields now?

For early game rush, you don't need shields, only attack and evade. Shields/healt make the difference when both sides have strong soldiers, but you can kill an army of weak soldiers without them.

empire in around one hour and barbarians in well more than one hours. This, the main problem, still stands.

I think you don't know how fast one can make them ;-)

well, I know I can make one hour with empire last time i tried, and I haven't tried barbarians so I don't know them. Assuming in both cases no healt promotions. If you found ways to shorten the time to half an hour with empire too, I would not be overly surprised. I'd be a bit more surprised for barbarians, since the time needed to train a master brewer and start evade training can't be shortened.

incidentally - taking for granted that there is no consensus and not enough interest and so nothing will be changed here - would you care to explain why you oppose my proposal? Everyone else have given arguments but you (if you did previously, link me to them and I apologize for forgetting).


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2018-10-16, 18:40

king_of_nowhere wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

@king_of_nowhere

Not true. Atlanteans still can make a supersoldier in 35 minutes,

Really? Have you found a way to do that even though they need shields now?

For early game rush, you don't need shields, only attack and evade.

If you think so... But then the other tribes can do the same

empire in around one hour and barbarians in well more than one hours. This, the main problem, still stands.

I think you don't know how fast one can make them ;-)

well, I know I can make one hour with empire last time i tried, and I haven't tried barbarians so I don't know them. Assuming in both cases no healt promotions. If you found ways to shorten the time to half an hour with empire too, I would not be overly surprised. I'd be a bit more surprised for barbarians, since the time needed to train a master brewer and start evade training can't be shortened.

Actually the time to train the brewer is not that long anymore since it has been reduced.

incidentally - taking for granted that there is no consensus and not enough interest and so nothing will be changed here - would you care to explain why you oppose my proposal? Everyone else have given arguments but you (if you did previously, link me to them and I apologize for forgetting).

Yes I did (telling that it would be annoying to send the same soldiers over and over into the trainingssites again for example)

Further arguments:

  • new difficulties about balancing are possible and probable
  • the current game is very good and it is fun to train the supersoldiers so fast. This can make the game also faster, don't forget that Widelands is very time-consuming
  • other changes have higher priority (fixing bugs for example)

“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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