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Topic: what is feasible method?

king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
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Posted at: 2018-09-16, 14:51

Tinker wrote:

I had initially thought along the lines of trained soldiers becoming trainers rather than just any soldier doing it. I did not mention it as there are enough people who are resistant to change already without giving them something to shoot down without further thought.

This would further exacerbate the problem of not getting new trainers. Trained soldiers are sent to the front. Now to get a trainer you'd have to stop all your military buildings from getting promoted soldiers. A big hassle of micromanagement for a skillled player, an insurmontable obstacle for an inexperienced one.

And answering legitimate criticism with complaints about prejudice won't help your case.

fuchur wrote:

Just a quick thought of an alternative way to create trainers:

As already mentioned currently one needs to have the corresponding wares (weapons) for a trainer in the same warehouse. A worker picks them, gets a trainer and walks to the trainingsite which requested a trainer.

To avoid the problem of having both wares for a trainer in the same warehouse I could imagine to let the trainingsite create the trainer. If no trainer is available the trainingsite will request a carrier and the needed wares. When all of them are there the trainer is created, just like in a warehouse. Even if at the time of the request none of the needed weapons/armour are available they will be made and delivered finally. This could take a while, depending on the requests for weapons of other buildings, but eventually one would get a trainer. This works without the need to micromanage the warehouses/barracks/other trainingsites to make the weapons available.

That's actually a great idea. It would fix the micromanagement issue and it would be friendly to new players. I support the idea (which I wouldn't do if I was resistant to change and looking for something to shoot down)

EDIT: this would also let us take in tinker's idea of trainers needing weapons without creating micromanagement hassle. All it would take would be to define trainers levels. So a level 1 trainer would need a level 1 weapoon and armor and could train to attack 1 and defence 1, a level 2 trainer would be made by givving a level 2 weapon and armor to a level 1 trainer and would train up to level 2...

Not only it would work, but if we give everyone just level 0 trainers for start, it may help with balance. Now the first to produce a full set of weapons has a huge early game advantage. If we make this change, one would need to produce 2 sets of weapons and one of armor before getting an effective soldier, which would severely cramp the combos to get a supersoldier in early game. It encourages better the making of a full economy rather than finding shortcuts. I now also support this proposal

Edited: 2018-09-16, 14:57
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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2018-09-16, 15:52

My ultimate goal would be along the lines that barracks and first training would be done by trainers made of soldiers with some experience and final training would need trainers from fully promoted soldiers, as you say a radical change for a long way in the future.

+1

I´m still not convinced there´s any need for a change at all, but I really like this idea. Going a bit further: The trainers could be deleted completely and instead trainingsites and barracks have a soldier as worker, and the soldier works as a trainer but can only give upgrades which he himself has already received.

To avoid the problem of having both wares for a trainer in the same warehouse I could imagine to let the trainingsite create the trainer. If no trainer is available the trainingsite will request a carrier and the needed wares. When all of them are there the trainer is created, just like in a warehouse. Even if at the time of the request none of the needed weapons/armour are available they will be made and delivered finally. This could take a while, depending on the requests for weapons of other buildings, but eventually one would get a trainer. This works without the need to micromanage the warehouses/barracks/other trainingsites to make the weapons available.

Okay, no objection…

But it should still be possible to create a trainer directly if needed if all needed wares happen to be in the same warehouse.

All it would take would be to define trainers levels. So a level 1 trainer would need a level 1 weapoon and armor and could train to attack 1 and defence 1, a level 2 trainer would be made by givving a level 2 weapon and armor to a level 1 trainer and would train up to level 2...

I don´t really like that one. Would it be possible to train the trainers? A level 1 trainer seems fairly useless to me. And how should the engine decide which trainer should be requested/created?


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Arty
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Joined: 2018-08-03, 12:14
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Posted at: 2018-09-16, 17:30

Nordfriese wrote:

My ultimate goal would be along the lines that barracks and first training would be done by trainers made of soldiers with some experience and final training would need trainers from fully promoted soldiers, as you say a radical change for a long way in the future.

+1

I´m still not convinced there´s any need for a change at all, but I really like this idea. Going a bit further: The trainers could be deleted completely and instead trainingsites and barracks have a soldier as worker, and the soldier works as a trainer but can only give upgrades which he himself has already received.

Well, then you have a chicken-egg-problem. Where do you get your first upgraded trainer from? The trainer would have to be able to teach one level higher or teach himself or so.

I also don't see a huge problem with the current system, but if the conflict situations regarding trainer creation (wares go to recruits instead, or wares in different warehouses) are considered a problem that needs fixing, then I don't see a reason why trainers couldn't just be created without any wares. From a realism point of view, any combat training would involve muck-up weapons like wooden swords anyway, and for extra stuff there is also the gear available that the recruit gets after the training. And from a gameplay point of view it doesn't make much of a difference when we start with 3 trainers anyway.

All it would take would be to define trainers levels. So a level 1 trainer would need a level 1 weapoon and armor and could train to attack 1 and defence 1, a level 2 trainer would be made by givving a level 2 weapon and armor to a level 1 trainer and would train up to level 2...

I don´t really like that one. Would it be possible to train the trainers? A level 1 trainer seems fairly useless to me. And how should the engine decide which trainer should be requested/created?

I am also not a big fan of this. Seems too excessive.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2018-09-17, 05:20

Nordfriese wrote:

All it would take would be to define trainers levels. So a level 1 trainer would need a level 1 weapoon and armor and could train to attack 1 and defence 1, a level 2 trainer would be made by givving a level 2 weapon and armor to a level 1 trainer and would train up to level 2...

I don´t really like that one. Would it be possible to train the trainers? A level 1 trainer seems fairly useless to me. And how should the engine decide which trainer should be requested/created?

So you say you'd like a trainer to only be able to give promotions he himself has learned. How do you define which promotions are which without giving the trainers some levels? They would be the same levels of the soldiers. Using soldiers for trainers instead is undesirable. As was said many times, this way one would fine himself without trainer as long as the front is soaking up promoted soldiers.

As for the engine, it's very simple and straightforward. You start with a level 0 trainer, which requires no tools, or at most the tools of a common soldiers. You have your training camp, with equipment in it.

So first thing the training camp tries to train a soldier to attack 1 with the level 1 weapon, but cannot, because the trainer does not know attack 1. So the trainer learns attack 1 with the first cycle, consuming the weapon. Then the training camp would try to learn armor 1, but the trainer does not have it, so the trainer learns armor 1 instead. And so on. Once the trainer has the relevant promotion, the soldiers are promoted. The working cycle is exactly identical to what is used now, only difference is that if the trainer lacks a promotion, the cycle will promote the trainer instead of the soldiers.

And new trainers will be only formed with new training sites, and only promoted when they start working on a training site. No risk of addiional trainers accidentally stealing equipment from the soldiers before you make the second training camp.

As I said, I think it will balance powergaming a bit better.


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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2018-09-17, 07:54

I think the last ideas are going into the direction having an additional building: Academy

What is written about trainer levels, could also be discussed for the miners: Why do a miner become a master/chief miner only by time and not by education?

An academy can solve such issues. It will produce experienced workers/trainers. Not sure if this will fit into widelands though.

I also think that micromanaging is a part of widelands, because widelands is mainly about managing an economy and having the possibility to fine tune the economy is one of the fun factors. But fine tuning an economy has to be optional, the game has to work without it. In this regard creating trainers in the barracks is fine for me, but if a player need more trainers he can be considered as an experienced player and such be able to micromanage his wares for building a trainer.

What about mention 'How to create additional trainers' in a campaign or tutorial?


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2018-09-17, 08:48

@king: Thanks for the explanation, now I understand better what you mean. Yes, that´s a good idea (though it seems a bit strange that trainers can train themselves while soldiers can´t).
+1 from me face-smile.png

kaputtnik wrote:

Why do a miner become a master/chief miner only by time and not by education?

Learning by doing…
An academy doesn´t really fit to Widelands IMHO. Learning the theory of mining surely can´t replace the practical experience a miner gains through working in a mine, and demanding the education additionally to experience would disadvantage tribes who need many experienced workers (especially barbarians and frisians) against tribes who don´t, esp. atlanteans. An interesting idea nonetheless face-smile.png


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2018-09-17, 14:47

I like where this discussion is going face-smile.png


Busy indexing nil values

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dreieck
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Joined: 2018-08-25, 11:48
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Posted at: 2018-09-21, 09:56

king_of_nowhere wrote:

EDIT: this would also let us take in tinker's idea of trainers needing weapons without creating micromanagement hassle. All it would take would be to define trainers levels. So a level 1 trainer would need a level 1 weapoon and armor and could train to attack 1 and defence 1, a level 2 trainer would be made by givving a level 2 weapon and armor to a level 1 trainer and would train up to level 2...

I am against the need to incremental trainer update.

If a "level 3 weapon/ armor" is available a level three trainer can be made straight out of a carrier. OR out of a level 2 trainer, freeing (not discarding!) the "level 2 weapon/ armor".

OR (as usual), trainers upgrade by experience.

In general, I support the idea of trainers getting created at barracks or trainigsites from weapon/ armor + carrier.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2018-09-21, 18:01

dreieck wrote:

OR (as usual), trainers upgrade by experience.

you know, that could be an even better idea.

Since this is about game balance and not micromanaging of trainer, I'm going to open a new thread


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