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Topic: What about waste?

dreieck
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Joined: 2018-08-25, 11:48
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Posted at: 2018-08-29, 10:51

Inspired by [This thread about limited storage spaces]:

Every economy produces waste. What about waste in widelands? On waste-producing sites later on, first on waste management:

  • Waste cannot be stored in warehouses (ad infinitum).
  • Waste can be piled up in waste piles by a cheap, maybe small, building; but that will fill up land.
  • More waste can be stored in waste dumps or, maybe better, in mines in (double, triple, quadruple) the amount as the mine did remove ore (free space -> can be filled with waste).
  • Maybe some way that allows to get rid of infinite amount of waste? (Burning and polluting the surroundings, making anything whichs grows growing less and less quick?)

Getting rid of waste should be a small challange, but not really expensive.

The first idea which came into my mind about waste producing site was:

  • Military buildings if occupied.

(↑ That is a bit unlogical, since they do the least economics, they do not get any wares in but they should get something out? -- On the other side, one can make the pun that soldiers just sit there in a consumerism way of life, while all the others take part in a recycling economy). This makes it more expensive to have many military buildings, making one think twice if somene wants to close up a space by many military buildings or not.

  • Somehow coupled to ware processing/ refinement in higher buildings.

↑ This could for my personal opinion about the limited storage spaces in warehouses another solution to the same idea: Making over-producing economy a challenge to the player.

(Apropos: What happens with "old" weapons/ armors when a soldier gets stronger and needs a new one?)


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2018-08-29, 11:05

I like the concept face-smile.png

Storing waste in mines seems illogical to me in Widelands, and I expect it would be very hard to code. A Waste Dump for simply piling it up somewhere (irreversibly?) and a cheap and dirty Waste Burner for destroying waste is sensible, I´d additionally suggest a more expensive building that can delete waste without polluting the environment.

Getting rid of waste should be a small challange, but not really expensive.

+1

The first idea which came into my mind about waste producing site was:

  • Military buildings if occupied.

-1
Too illogical imho.

  • Somehow coupled to ware processing/ refinement in higher buildings.

+1
They could either have waste as a normal output (like scrap metal in frisian trainingsites), or it could be hardcoded that the waste ware is produced on every consume or produce statement.

(Apropos: What happens with "old" weapons/ armors when a soldier gets stronger and needs a new one?)

Frisian training sites drop out scrap metal and old furs, which is turned into iron, gold and fur by a recycling centre. Recycling old weapons and armour was discussed for the other tribes as well, but there was no clear consensus to have it; and if they could do that, frisians would become too disadvantaged. So the old equipment just vanishes.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2018-08-29, 14:26

-1.

It just doesn't feel right with the setting; the technology level is akin to early rome, nobody was worrying about waste at the time except maybe to dump them into the closer stream.

Plus, every change requiring more buildings to be made complicates small maps that were made with limited space available


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dreieck
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Posted at: 2018-08-29, 15:28

king_of_nowhere wrote:

-1.

Plus, every change requiring more buildings to be made complicates small maps that were made with limited space available

I think taking existing maps as an argument is not a so-valid argument.

Since on the other side, maps emerge out of how the game is working at the time of making this specific maps.

(Maybe I am too much in the thought-mode of "Return to the Roots", where all changes are options which the player can select in the options menu, and as such even make old maps not unplayable since the option simple can be left un-selected.)

Besides that, personal "-1" is definitely legitimate.

It just doesn't feel right with the setting; the technology level is akin to early rome, nobody was worrying about waste at the time except maybe to dump them into the closer stream.

They would have had problems if they dumped the waste inside the cities; and when in widelands everything is closely built it is somewhat similar situation.


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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2018-08-29, 20:28

For me there is a problem of defining waste. Examples for empire:

  1. Do Smelting works produce ashes as waste?
  2. Do Stonemasons produce stone pieces as waste?
  3. Do Woodcutters produce small pieces of wood (twigs) as waste?
  4. Do all Buildings which consume fish produce fish bones as waste?
  5. Do Donkey farms produce donkey shit as waste?

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2018-08-29, 21:18

dreieck wrote:

I think taking existing maps as an argument is not a so-valid argument.

Widelands has always tried to be backwards compatible. For build 20 we had to break this for some reason but this was a major pity for all.

(Maybe I am too much in the thought-mode of "Return to the Roots", where all changes are options which the player can select in the options menu, and as such even make old maps not unplayable since the option simple can be left un-selected.)

Making new building and features switchable is very difficult because the tribes need to be balanced in both modes then. And balancing them in the current mode is hard enough to do.

They would have had problems if they dumped the waste inside the cities; and when in widelands everything is closely built it is somewhat similar situation.

Just a short cite from Monthy Python: "He must be a king." "How do you now?" "Cause he is not fully covered with shit."

So generally spoken I am not in favor of any major changes to the current tribes. They have evolved now for over 10 years in widelands and are pretty much developed. (although still for the current tribes a lot of animations are missing for example due to the lack of graphic designers). For me adding a single feature or building to them needs a good reason as it provides only little more variety to the gameplay of the tribe. In the end it is just another thing you need to consider while trying to build miltiary power and gain more territory.
What I can think of instead would be a tribe that has perhaps a more industrial economy and in return to having higher productivity will have to deal with a waste problem. For me that sounds much better cause a complete tribe around this theme would add a lot of new variety to the game.

In the end widelands is a game not a simulation. So for me the question is: will a change add real value to the game in terms of options and variety to play. So introduction of the frisians was a big step for me. from a feature perspective there are much more important changes still to be implemented ( most important from my viewpoint is the possibility to attack an enemy port from sea). So I would not expect to have this feature soon.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2018-08-30, 03:45

dreieck wrote:

They would have had problems if they dumped the waste inside the cities;

I'm going for an hystorical tangent here, but until a few centuries ago, with very few exceptions, throwing kitchen dumpings and human excrements on the street was the norm. Roads had drainage channels in the middle or on the sides. And yes, they had problems: all those big epidemics thrived in the poor hygienic conditions. Still, didn't stop them. they didn't even knew that by keeping clean they could avoid most disease.

My city lies on a small elevation in the middle of a plain, and it has been inhabited for some 3000 years. During that time, the terrain around the city gained less than one meter of elevation because of sedimanetation. The city gained several meters, because of the greater amount of stuff that was thrown on the streets that would eventually become new ground. Buildings generally don't last long enough to notice the road level going up, but there are some notable exceptions of long-lasting palaces where the ground floor became the cellar.

I am basically living over three meters of sedimented shit. That's how they dealt with waste in ancient times.

That in no way wants to be a statement towards the game.


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Tinker
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Posted at: 2018-08-30, 10:17

I have a development branch that uses waste. All tribes have some sort of recycling from training sites, apart from the Frisians all are very inefficient. In addition I have organic waste, produced by wood cutters, fishers, hunters, brewers and animal farms, this waste is composted and used to enhance production, mainly grain where if a farmer has 10 compost in store then the next production cycle uses it to produce a double crop, foresters can also use compost to aid tree growth on marginal land but that system is not working yet.

Yes this makes life more complicated, that is interesting, and as my ultimate aim is to remove soldiers from the game it does give the player something to do.


The only way to prevent a mass extinction event is to remove homo sapiens, or stupiditus, from the planet. It may be to late for this final solution though.

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einstein13
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Posted at: 2018-08-30, 10:27

I think that there are two possibilities for this idea in Widelands:

  1. Apply more waste materials in Frisian tribe

  2. Create brand new tribe, very industrial (but quite simple) economy.

As it was told, significant change to current tribes is not a best idea since all the tribes were balanced many times and we think that we spot a good balance now. Frisians are quite a new idea and is still "under development". Unfortunately I can't say anything about them since I wasn't playing them yet. I know only basics.


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2018-08-31, 11:28

Apply more waste materials in Frisian tribe

-1
The frisians are already more complex than the other tribes. An additional difficulty for them only could be fatal for balancing.

Create brand new tribe, very industrial (but quite simple) economy.

+1
We have suggestions for Amazons, Egyptians, various other ideas… now for "Industrials"… This would make most sense, but I wouldn´t expect to see this concept in the game anytime soon then face-wink.png


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