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Topic: Frisian Balancing

Tinker
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Joined: 2014-09-12, 10:53
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Posted at: 2018-09-16, 10:30

Sewing rooms and tailors shops should stay as they are at least, or perhaps the tailors shop could have another enhancement, and advanced worker, so the tailors shop produced iron/fur and the enhanced one gold/fur as well.

I am against having any advanced workers in the starting condition of any tribe, what is the point of having worker experience and upgrading if you give the player the advanced workers to start with? Training workers is already so easy it is getting pointless.

Fur from hunters is an obviously logical thing, the level of production is the problem. As we cannot tell what animal the hunter has caught we have to use ratios to simulate different animals being caught, 1 in 5 seems to be the best approximation, well 1 in 5.5 is more accurate, so once every 5 or 6 cycles works best.


The only way to prevent a mass extinction event is to remove homo sapiens, or stupiditus, from the planet. It may be to late for this final solution though.

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hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Posted at: 2018-09-16, 14:30

@ Tinker: I fully understand and appreciat your style and interest in playing widelands in singleplayer modus. I never played multiplayer myself as well. (that was the reason why I started to create missions for the campaigns to add more value for singleplayer).
However I understand and appreciate the needs and interests of the players who prefer Multiplayer equally. So all I am trying is to make the frisians a valuable choice for Multiplayer as well while doing as less harm as I can to the tribes charakter. If they are no real choice in multiplayer the frisians just feel to be not an equal member of the tribe family. And this would be a great pity in my eyes just for the fact they are so much fun from their basic principles and Nordfriese has put so much work in them. So I am struggling hard to get them there.
IMHO giving them one advanced seamstress to cure a real disadvantage with regard to timely build a fully trained soldier, this should be acceptable to you as well as you can easily revert this setting in your special starting conditions. So this won't do much harm to your current gameplay.
Having another advancement cycle would increase the disadvantage and not decrease it so I don't deem this acceptable.
For the fur I could possibly follow your suggestion. Although I appreciate Nordfrieses argumetns as well. The reason is that implementing this feature did cost us some work on the AI and I don't want to be this work uselees. (I know this is not a good reason, cause it is based on emotion rather than logic) Perhaps having a fur only every 5th hunt would not ease up the need for reindeer farms and barley and just give a small boost on some maps with lots of game. (Other tribes have some small map dependent advantages as well).


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Nordfriese
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Joined: 2017-01-17, 18:07
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Posted at: 2018-09-16, 18:35

On the one hand, the hunter´s fur output for furry animals is logical and I could try to implement the needed code next week. On the other hand, I dislike greater map-specific advantages, so the hunter should produce only on every 5th cycle at most imho. Perhaps I could implement that fur will be produced for each caught furry animal with a chance of ~15%, and never for non-furry ones.

Having another advancement cycle would increase the disadvantage and not decrease it so I don't deem this acceptable.

+1


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2018-09-17, 14:36

hessenfarmer wrote:

The reason is that implementing this feature did cost us some work on the AI and I don't want to be this work uselees. (I know this is not a good reason, cause it is based on emotion rather than logic)

No, it is not. This kind of thing can happen in software development. The work is still not useless, because it might profit a future tribe.

I have in fact implemented a complete dead-end feature this cycle, which is the animation scaling. It will be replaced with mipmaps before ever having been used, because mipmaps will give us so much better graphic quality...

So, do whatever is best for the tribe now!

Edited: 2018-09-17, 14:37

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2018-09-17, 20:03

Ok in my current branch I have set the cycle to 5 for the fur production but I still have to test this.
Furthermore I saw a second branch with balancing changes. The fix for the claypit is also present in my branch. I fixed the recycling center differently. perhaps WorldSavior could explain why he changed it his way.
I would vote for progressing the changes together in one branch.


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2018-09-18, 10:08

hessenfarmer wrote:

I would vote for progressing the changes together in one branch.

+1

Would you like to take the lead in managing the branches?


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2018-09-18, 21:48

hessenfarmer wrote:

Furthermore I saw a second branch with balancing changes. The fix for the claypit is also present in my branch.

Interesting that we fix that at the same time

I fixed the recycling center differently. perhaps WorldSavior could explain why he changed it his way.

The reason is in the "commit message": https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/balancing-worldsavior/+merge/355158

I would vote for progressing the changes together in one branch.

If that makes things easier this would be better

Some more things about the balancing: What about reducing brewer experience to 10, like it's the case with barbarians?

And I've discovered that the Frisian soldier attributes are not like they are supposed to be. The person who implemented them seems to have miscalculated and Frisian elite-soldiers are too much disadvantaged against Atlantean and imperial ones. I guess that they are miscalculated because it has been forgotten to take the new weapon-values of those two tribes into account. It would be correct if the person who miscalculated finds better values (without damaging the balance of level-0-soldiers) or if the codebase would be changed in order to implemented the values which I have proposed once.

Edit: And I think that the experience of smiths should also be reduced, for example to 11.

Edited: 2018-09-18, 22:26

“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2018-09-19, 08:12

WorldSavior wrote:

Interesting that we fix that at the same time

face-wink.png that might be no miracle as I was just going through all the discussion we had and searched for open points.

I fixed the recycling center differently. perhaps WorldSavior could explain why he changed it his way.

The reason is in the "commit message": https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/balancing-worldsavior/+merge/355158

Ok got it. Thanks. I will do it this way then.

I would vote for progressing the changes together in one branch.

If that makes things easier this would be better

Ok so I will incorporate your solutions in my branch manually. Ok?

Some more things about the balancing: What about reducing brewer experience to 10, like it's the case with barbarians?

And I've discovered that the Frisian soldier attributes are not like they are supposed to be. The person who implemented them seems to have miscalculated and Frisian elite-soldiers are too much disadvantaged against Atlantean and imperial ones. I guess that they are miscalculated because it has been forgotten to take the new weapon-values of those two tribes into account. It would be correct if the person who miscalculated finds better values (without damaging the balance of level-0-soldiers) or if the codebase would be changed in order to implemented the values which I have proposed once.

I will search for einsteins latest calulations and see what might be wrong.

Edit: And I think that the experience of smiths should also be reduced, for example to 11.

I will have a look into experience as well. Any special observations why you are proposing these values? I didn't notice any need for having the smith or the brewer reduced in experience. Changes to the experience levels are somewhat only very ultima ratio, as Nordfriese explained this is kind of the character of the tribe. So I would only vote for such a change if there is no other solution at all.


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2018-09-20, 15:07

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Interesting that we fix that at the same time

face-wink.png that might be no miracle as I was just going through all the discussion we had and searched for open points.

I fixed the recycling center differently. perhaps WorldSavior could explain why he changed it his way.

The reason is in the "commit message": https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/balancing-worldsavior/+merge/355158

Ok got it. Thanks.

You're welcome.

I will do it this way then.

okay

I would vote for progressing the changes together in one branch.

If that makes things easier this would be better

Ok so I will incorporate your solutions in my branch manually. Ok?

Yes

Edit: And I think that the experience of smiths should also be reduced, for example to 11.

I will have a look into experience as well. Any special observations why you are proposing these values? I didn't notice any need for having the smith or the brewer reduced in experience. Changes to the experience levels are somewhat only very ultima ratio, as Nordfriese explained this is kind of the character of the tribe. So I would only vote for such a change if there is no other solution at all.

That the smith needs 22 experience and that the brewer needs 18 (or something like this) increases the time for training top-soldiers (both buildings are much slower than the bakery). So Frisians are too slow imho.


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2018-10-01, 11:18

New merge request for WorldSavior's changes: https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/frisian_balancing_worldsavior_201809/+merge/355907


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