Topic: Rework Atlantean Crystal Mine

WorldSavior wrote:

I think that it's a bug. Even without that bug, barbarian depleted mines would be much better than other depleted mines, and this bug makes it worse. So I don't think that it's a feature at the same time...

Before depletion, atlantean mines produce 1.67 iron for every mountain resource, while barbarians get 1.22 (unless barbarian has master miners at hand and enhances mines early). In addition, atlantean mines reach mountain areas that barbarians cannot use. The net result is that atlanteans get more stuff before the misery of depleted mines begins (on most maps, not all of course). Is that also a bug?

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WorldSavior wrote:

Surprising! That is a bug, because it's not logical that additional resources can be extracted, depending on the tribe... Good job discovering it, teppo. In my opinion, it has high priority.

Thanks.. This is a weird discussion. I still feel that the mines are simply different and no bugs remain. If you write a comprehensive bug report, maybe something happens.

.. on the other hand, I would like to fix the annoying bug of charcoal burners: They work whenever economy needs coal. IMO they should work always when economy does not need trunk. The player is allowed to put target level of trunk down to zero, if he really want an acute shortage of wood. Not everybody agrees that the current way is wrong, though

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teppo wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Surprising! That is a bug, because it's not logical that additional resources can be extracted, depending on the tribe... Good job discovering it, teppo. In my opinion, it has high priority.

Thanks..

You're welcome

This is a weird discussion.

Why?

I still feel that the mines are simply different and no bugs remain.

But somewhere it is told that most mines have got a 5% chance to find something when depleted, which is often not the case. And some coders overlooked that "produce ore:n" in .lua will not remove ores from the mountains, only the lines with "mine ore" do that (afaik. only on per "mine".). So: Additional ores can be extracted from the mountains, so the game is unnecessarily illogical, so it's a bug.

If you write a comprehensive bug report, maybe something happens.

Well... This discussion is a kind of comprehensive bug report

.. on the other hand, I would like to fix the annoying bug of charcoal burners: They work whenever economy needs coal.

Why shouldn't they?

IMO they should work always when economy does not need trunk.

Good point... In build18 it was like that, there was an economy setting of trunks, but unfortunately that feature had been deleted.

The player is allowed to put target level of trunk down to zero, if he really want an acute shortage of wood.

Not anymore since build19...

Not everybody agrees that the current way is wrong, though

I do. But not because burners are working too often, but too rarely

GunChleoc wrote:

What happens though if you really need coal, but have e.g. a bunch of construction sites open? And your sawmills will also want logs, and your toolmaker, and your smokeries, so the economy will have need even with target set to 0. I think it might be easier to micromanage the inputs of the charcoal burners, with the logic staying as it is. Feel free to convince me otherwise though

I don't see any input micromanaging which would help after build18

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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GunChleoc wrote:

What happens though if you really need coal, but have e.g. a bunch of construction sites open? And your sawmills will also want logs, and your toolmaker, and your smokeries, so the economy will have need even with target set to 0.

In the situation described above, I would most likely lose the game regardless of what the coal burners do. And in vast majority cases, I would shut the burners down to let the important construction sites to finish and boot the economy to a sensible state. It is possible to imagine a corner case where the one piece of coal from the burner in a desperate wood shortage makes the day, but those cases are rare.

If coal burners would consume surpluses always, they would somewhat reduce the food consumption of coal mines and thus indirectly allow more iron/gold/etc to be produced. When there is a construction boom, they would stop working and thus let the wood to flow to construction sites. Bottom line is that in this way the burners would benefit their society regardless of the amount of wood in stock. Of course there are corner cases when another way is more efficient, but that is not a showstopper (micromanaging helps in desperate cases).

EDIT: In other words:

The example of yours demonstrates that wood is needed for many critical tasks. If player has many coal burners, those need micromanagement or else many things stop working right: It is a good thing to have some wood around. If coal burners are sensitive to amount of trunk instead of amount of coal, then this problem is diminished.

Coal can be mined or "burned". If the charcoal burner works when there is no immediate need of coal, then coal mines work less often and consume foodstuff less often (logic: economy needs coal less often if some is produced also when the user has the target amount, and coal mines only work when economy needs coal). Therefore, the player gets more iron (/gold/etc) with similar food production. Also coal mines deplete somewhat slower. Both are beneficial to the player. Having huge piles of wood at the warehouse is not usually that useful. If coal burners worked without need for coal, the risk of huge piles of coal accumulating into warehouses would still not be a big problem, considering the amount of consumption and the inefficiency of the burners. In addition, if the player really wants logpiles, he still can micromanage although I cannot really imagine doing this myself.

I think it might be easier to micromanage the inputs of the charcoal burners, with the logic staying as it is. Feel free to convince me otherwise though

If the coal mines would be sensitive to amount of coal and burners would be sensitive to amount of trunk, micromanagement would be needed less often. In the corner cases where the logic would not serve the player well, micromanaging around it would still be possible.

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Do we have any productionsites that are sensitive to abundance of inputs, instead the necessity of output?

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