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Topic: Fix Barbarians' early training disadvantage

Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-11-29, 21:33

WorldSavior wrote:

In fact brewers ignore the economy settings if they need experience (in micro breweries) - i don't like that. Maybe it would make more sense to increase the default settings of the beer as much as it would be necessary...

-1

In early game, I usually have one brewer and wait for him to become a master. Your suggestion wouldn´t make a difference here. In later game, if I need more master brewers, it is much easier just to wait until a brewer trains himself than having to adjust the target quantity all the time. Since breweries are much more important than breweries, it makes sense to train every brewer in a micro brewery to master immediately. Since demand for normal beer isn´t that great normally, your suggestion would mean I´d have to constantly increase the target of normal beer.

More important – if I´d increase the target of beer to train several more master brewers, those master brewers who still work in micro breweries (because the building wasn´t enhanced yet, or they haven´t been sent to a brewery yet) would waste resources on undesired beer production; which is not a problem with the current system.

GunChleoc wrote:

Not easy to do, since that also depends on the starting condition.

How do you mean this?


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-11-30, 10:20

Nordfriese wrote:

GunChleoc wrote:

Not easy to do, since that also depends on the starting condition.

How do you mean this?

On game start, the headquarters already has some wares in it. How many of each depends on whether you start with Headquarters, Fortified Village etc.

Now, let's assume that we define a target quantity of 19 for the beer so that the brewer will get trained, and that the headquarters is prefilled with 4 beer. The brewer will then produce only 15 beer instead of 19, leaving him 4 XP short.

Of course, we can tweak the numbers and tweak them again with every new or changed starting condition, but then we'll eventually forget and break it.

So, this is another -1. The idea was well worth bringing up, but it's not viable.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-11-30, 15:10

Nordfriese wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

In fact brewers ignore the economy settings if they need experience (in micro breweries) - i don't like that. Maybe it would make more sense to increase the default settings of the beer as much as it would be necessary...

-1

In early game, I usually have one brewer and wait for him to become a master. Your suggestion wouldn´t make a difference here. In later game, if I need more master brewers, it is much easier just to wait until a brewer trains himself than having to adjust the target quantity all the time.

And I thinks it's even better to train every further master brewer in the breweries, not in the micro breweries - especially in the late game face-wink.png

Since breweries are much more important than breweries,

East Frisian logic? face-wink.png

it makes sense to train every brewer in a micro brewery to master immediately. Since demand for normal beer isn´t that great normally, your suggestion would mean I´d have to constantly increase the target of normal beer.

Not necessarily if you train all your further master brewers in the breweries face-wink.png

More important – if I´d increase the target of beer to train several more master brewers, those master brewers who still work in micro breweries (because the building wasn´t enhanced yet, or they haven´t been sent to a brewery yet) would waste resources on undesired beer production; which is not a problem with the current system.

Yeah, but why should one let a full micro brewerie with a master brewer inside untouched? face-wink.png

And if you don't like to produce superfluous beer, why don't you let the breweries let the training-work do?

Theoretically one could implement the option to choose between both systems, what about that?

Consider the following fact: Beer is only useful for gold production - only if normal mines don't work anymore. So every further micro brewerie which is used to train another master brewer wastes a lot of resources, in most cases.

GunChleoc wrote:

Nordfriese wrote:

GunChleoc wrote:

Not easy to do, since that also depends on the starting condition.

How do you mean this?

On game start, the headquarters already has some wares in it. How many of each depends on whether you start with Headquarters, Fortified Village etc.

Now, let's assume that we define a target quantity of 19 for the beer so that the brewer will get trained, and that the headquarters is prefilled with 4 beer. The brewer will then produce only 15 beer instead of 19, leaving him 4 XP short.

Of course, we can tweak the numbers and tweak them again with every new or changed starting condition, but then we'll eventually forget and break it.

So, this is another -1. The idea was well worth bringing up, but it's not viable.

Right now, no matter how the starting condition is, barbarians start with 0 beer. And the trading outposts generate no beer... So I don't think that it's a problem.


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-11-30, 20:12

Well, right now. It is not se4t in stone for all eternity, and relying on it is bad code design. It WILL bite us in the ass when we're not looking.

An option is not easy to implement and would take up too many developer resources for little gain IMO. If you don't need the beer, just do as you are already doing and train them in the breweries once you have your first master brewer. You can then instantly enhance all micro new breweries.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2017-11-30, 20:30

WorldSavior wrote:

In fact brewers ignore the economy settings if they need experience (in micro breweries) - i don't like that. Maybe it would make more sense to increase the default settings of the beer as much as it would be necessary...

are you sure? Ihad a look in the code but although in the production Program it is said "return=skipped until economy needs beer or workers need experience" I think I never saw this in the game. Always had to increase the demand. But it has been a long time that I really played the barbarians.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-11-30, 21:26

GunChleoc wrote:

Well, right now. It is not se4t in stone for all eternity, and relying on it is bad code design. It WILL bite us in the ass when we're not looking.

Lol. Would it also be bad code design to leave some reminding comments in the code?

And anyway, it's normal in the game that economy settings can stop production.

An option is not easy to implement and would take up too many developer resources for little gain IMO.

Also if the micro breweries would respect the economy settings if the economy settings are below 2? It could say something like: "The production of beer was skipped because the economy doesn't need beer and because the economy settings for beer are below 2"

If you don't need the beer, just do as you are already doing and train them in the breweries once you have your first master brewer. You can then instantly enhance all micro new breweries.

But if I play collectors on a map where i need deep gold mines, I like to use micro breweries and inns instead of breweries and big inns. If the micro breweries ignore the economy settings, they can destroy the balance of my economy face-wink.png

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

In fact brewers ignore the economy settings if they need experience (in micro breweries) - i don't like that. Maybe it would make more sense to increase the default settings of the beer as much as it would be necessary...

are you sure?

Are you sure that this question makes sense? face-wink.png


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-12-01, 09:52

Of course it makes sense, if he feels that it doesn't work like it says on the tin.

What we really need here is an easy modding system, so that you can have your own version of the tribe where the "or workers need experience" is dropped.

I already have taken the first steps on the backend for a modding system, but I have run into a really weird bug that I don't understand, so that is stalled for now while we fix more important bugs (i.e. the crashes in trunk).


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teppo

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Posted at: 2017-12-03, 12:21

Is it really a problem that barbarians have to work a bit before getting promoted soldiers, or is it a problem that other tribes get those much faster ?


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-12-03, 16:51

The problem is that the other tribes are faster. So, we can slow down the other tribes, or speed up the Barbarians.


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teppo

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Posted at: 2017-12-03, 20:01

GunChleoc wrote:

The problem is that the other tribes are faster. So, we can slow down the other tribes, or speed up the Barbarians.

There are more innovative ways to slow down other tribes than there is to speed up barbarians.

Anyway, the tribes do not have to be equal; they should be approximately in balance. If we aim to make them equally easy on all maps, some of the fun might go away.


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