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Topic: Minimal start conditions

einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
Posts: 915
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One Elder of Players
Location: Poland
Posted at: 2017-09-16, 00:13

GunChleoc wrote:

You could also detect if a map allows seafaring and only add the gold then, to make sure that a least 1 expedition can be started.

+1 for this idea! Perfect solution!


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/

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GunChleoc
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Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56
Posts: 2398
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Location: RenderedRect
Posted at: 2017-09-19, 13:24

Looks like we can't call "allows_seafaring" from the Lua interface yet. It would be easy to add though - please open a bug.


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stdh
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Joined: 2013-08-04, 22:05
Posts: 26
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2017-09-21, 23:33

For the situation where there's no rocks right near the starting location, I implemented my idea of conditionally giving the player extra stuff so that they can expand (indefinitely, with enough trees around). The current code gives more granite (and takes away a plank for atlanteans) - but only for 'minimal' not for 'hardcore'. I pushed to lp:~stdh/widelands/minimal_startconditions. While testing, I found that the edge case of (initially) only having access to very few rocks actually happens, on Crossing the Horizon. Complexly annoying... But I think most maps are playable now.

Regarding the extra gold for expeditions, I'm not entirely convinced it's necessary, because IIRC most maps provide some gold near the start. But if we're making a rather tight start instead of an absolute hard-core start without any extras, GunChleoc's very workable idea seems fine to me. After all, how could I claim terms like 'hardcore' or 'minimal', when I didn't take into account mining gold on a marble hill (didn't know that was possible) or dismantling your first woodcutter to regain some planks. Should players complain about having too much gold, well, I suppose they can fix that themselves. face-smile.png

Did anyone try my 'minimal' start? I like the idea of having the player make most tools themselves, but I suppose it would be a bit annoying that your precious iron is so easily squandered on an extra builder. I had also thought about giving the player a toolsmithy, as a central building, in addition to the warehouse/HQ, but that might be hard to pull off practically.

WorldSavior wrote:

The album is not even hardcore music :-P

Right. I did a small search to see if the album title means anything special, and found this. Closer? face-wink.png

GunChleoc wrote:

Looks like we can't call "allows_seafaring" from the Lua interface yet. It would be easy to add though - please open a bug.

Done: bug


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 603
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Location: Saxony, GER
Posted at: 2017-09-22, 16:26

stdh wrote:

Regarding the extra gold for expeditions, I'm not entirely convinced it's necessary, because IIRC most maps provide some gold near the start. But if we're making a rather tight start instead of an absolute hard-core start without any extras, GunChleoc's very workable idea seems fine to me. After all, how could I claim terms like 'hardcore' or 'minimal', when I didn't take into account mining gold on a marble hill (didn't know that was possible) or dismantling your first woodcutter to regain some planks.

I also don't think that it's really hardcore if you get gold for expeditions even in cases where you can build any mines face-wink.png

This gold is only really needed if you cannot build any mines on your island

WorldSavior wrote:

The album is not even hardcore music :-P

Right. I did a small search to see if the album title means anything special, and found this. Closer? face-wink.png

I see only a forum face-wink.png Is this hardcore foruming? ;-)


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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stdh
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Joined: 2013-08-04, 22:05
Posts: 26
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2017-10-02, 22:46

If we want to include a minimal starting condition in the game ( - do we?), we should find a balance whether to include "extras" like the gold, and miners/farmers/... instead of iron. Surely if new players would use this to get the to know the tribes' economies more intimately, it should not be too hard on them. What do you all think?

WorldSavior wrote:

I see only a forum face-wink.png Is this hardcore foruming? ;-)

The discussion is about the gif being linked to at the top. Maybe that's a better demonstration of classic 90's hardcore? I'm not exactly an expert in this field...


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 603
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Location: Saxony, GER
Posted at: 2017-10-12, 23:31

stdh wrote:

If we want to include a minimal starting condition in the game ( - do we?), we should find a balance whether to include "extras" like the gold, and miners/farmers/... instead of iron. Surely if new players would use this to get the to know the tribes' economies more intimately, it should not be too hard on them. What do you all think?

As there is already the Trident of Fire Scenario, something which is even harder would not be bad imho. When I played that scenario, I thought something like "if one would have only tools instead of workers, it would be even more complex"

WorldSavior wrote:

I see only a forum face-wink.png Is this hardcore foruming? ;-)

The discussion is about the gif being linked to at the top. Maybe that's a better demonstration of classic 90's hardcore? I'm not exactly an expert in this field...

Okay. I guess it's hardcore techno... I'm also not an expert of that face-wink.png


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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Tinker
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Joined: 2014-09-12, 10:53
Posts: 156
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At home in WL-forums
Location: DDR
Posted at: 2017-11-29, 10:46

I have payed several maps with minimum conditions and found no real problems yet, needing to build an expedition to get the wares to build an expedition would be a problem but so far my only problems have been the AI using any other start condition is to strong to quick, and of course if the AI is given minimum start it falls over within 5 minutes. Perhaps there should be a different hardcore start for AI? One that gives the AI a chance to at least get a building wares supply chain going.

I have also been testing with Frisians tribe and I am surprised how little they need to start with to do well. I usually have started recruiting soldiers within 2 hours and have some level 10 ones half an hour later.


The only way to prevent a mass extinction event is to remove homo sapiens, or stupiditus, from the planet. It may be to late for this final solution though.

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GunChleoc
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Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56
Posts: 2398
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Location: RenderedRect
Posted at: 2017-12-11, 08:01

The "allows seafaring" branch has been reviewed and should hit trunk sometime today.

There will be 3 new functions:

  • ~wl.Game.map.allows_seafaring
  • ~wl.Game.map.number_of_port_spaces
  • ~wl.Game.map:set_port_space(x, y, allowed)

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