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Topic: Widelands tournament 2017: subscriptions started!

king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 988
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One Elder of Players
Posted at: 2017-12-04, 16:15

animohim wrote:

Please provide the replay files of WorldSavior vs King of Nowhere!

i mailed them to sirver. we have to wait for him to upload

Also, I PMed LAZA: he has 24 hours to answer, or I'll give him forfait.

Edited: 2017-12-04, 16:17
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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 416
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Location: Saxony, Djermany
Posted at: 2017-12-04, 18:11

Hasi50 wrote:

Improvement: Add some Info to the replay and to the inital messages about the involved players and theire colors/roles, including visitors.

In the statistics you can see who plays which colour, no matter if replay or ingame.

You can find the replay at https://www.magentacloud.de/share/tu4ayusx.k

Thanks for uploading face-smile.png

Thanks trimard, I learned that even Atantlers can play Barbaric tacticts.

Yes, they can. In my opinion Mars plays like this on small maps, just look how he defeated tando (if the replay is still watchable)

einstein13 wrote:

As I remember: Laza - Barbarians, Einstein - Empire :)

Not exactly. Tando played barbarians, but LAZA played random/empire face-wink.png

king_of_nowhere wrote:

well, worldsavior defeated me by making a (almost) fully promoted soldier in 35 minutes. 35 MINUTES!!!!

Back in the time when I first discovered this strategy, it took me 90 minutes to get one. with practice and refining I could shave the time to 75 minutes, then better. Today I knew I could get one in 60 minutes, and I was all "certainly he can't beat that. At least not by enough to take advantage of it".

face-smile.png

Nope. 35 minutes. To do it that fast, he didn't even make a blackroot farm. one single well. One gold mine that could barely reach gold with the end of its radius. He mined exactly 2 gold, then he stopped it. He had exactly enough bread from the starting wares to make 4 soldiers with healt and evade and 1 with also attack. Atlantean shields are quite useless, so that's a fully trained soldier for every relevant purposes. with that soldier he killed enough of mine that I couldn't get back. If I let him advance he could kill my headquarter before I could get my soldier, and if I stopped him (which I did) I would lose all my soldiers. I kept playing mostly because I wanted to go down fighting. I defended very well, but he had too much advantage. I also made a few mistakes, but they wouldn't matter at that point.

I did a better job developing an economy, but by the time I started producing for good (60 minutes) I had already taken enough damage that it didn't matter anymore. On a bigger map I could have just retreated, but on a bigger map he'd certainly have done something else.

Yes, just look like I played against Nemesis on Elven forests face-wink.png

Well, congrats to worldsavior for winning.

Thanks again! And congrats again to you, too

He keeps finding new ways to get the most out of the starting resources and just a bit more.

Maybe almost face-wink.png

king_of_nowhere wrote:

We should make sure that other tribes can also use similar strategies, otherwise if atlanteans can make a fully promoted guy in 35 minutes and everyone else can't we have a balance problem.

Maybe the empire can be also that fast?

But now I also wonder if it wouldn't be good to decrease the experience-amount of smiths and brewers (barbarians). Otherwise it could just take too much time, and it is possible that they really need to have elite-soldiers - maybe their rookie-rushs or 2At2Health-rushs are too bad?

I don't know how strong barbarians are exactly on small maps, but I think that atlanteans are just stronger.

Also, maybe we should nerf a bit atlantean level 0 soldiers (they were made strong with the idea that atlanteans would have a slow start, but instead they can rush pretty well with labirynth) and buff proportionally the shield promotions, which are very useless at the moment, especially given how expensive they are.

Maybe. But shield promotions could be more useful as soon as your suggestion with the attack-increase will be implemented, and did you know that a labyrinth cannot reach 100% productivity if it doesn't get any shields? If it gets everything except of shields, it can reach approx. 60% and if there are also not golden tabards left, the productivity will be approx. 35%.

(At the other hand, this looks like a bug )

teppo wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

Also, maybe we should nerf a bit atlantean level 0 soldiers (they were made strong with the idea that atlanteans would have a slow start, but instead they can rush pretty well with labirynth) and buff proportionally the shield promotions, which are very useless at the moment, especially given how expensive they are.

What about removing the blackroot flour and possibly something else also from Atlantean start wares, to make the shortcut go away, and preserve the differences between tribes?

I wouldn't like it... Maybe it would be better to make the other tribes stronger?

I watched the replay, and I have to say it was an impressive show. Congratulations for the victory!

Thank you face-smile.png

GunChleoc wrote:

We were discussing this topic in https://wl.widelands.org/forum/topic/4155/ before we got sidetracked. Maybe we should use that thread for general early-game promotion balancing?

animohim wrote:

Still no answer by LAZA :/. Think you have to forfait us.

Maybe he just doesn't have time and doesn't care about the Buchholz penalty

animohim wrote:

Please provide the replay files of WorldSavior vs King of Nowhere!

Already provided: http://www.widelands.org/~sirver/wl/170906_tournament_2017_replays/Round05/

king_of_nowhere wrote:

If your replies had been less confrontational and more diplomatic I would have found them much less annoying.

It has never been my aim to be confrontational, annoying or undiplomatic. Please don't feel attacked. But in my opinion you exaggerated so much that I think that you told lies about me...


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 416
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Location: Saxony, Djermany
Posted at: 2017-12-04, 18:18

By the way, I've made a summary of all statistics of the tournament nile matches at the time of 3:30 (it has been my idea to take 4h instead, but most games ended already at 3:30) - so why shouldn't I share it here? face-wink.png

name points (%) military buildings tribe version elite soldiers color
nemesis 18 313 170 E b19 yes blue
animohim 13 145 192 E b19 yes red
tando 30 146 100 B b19 no blue
king_of_nowhere 19 176 173 E b19 yes red
WorldSavior 35 409 295 E b19 yes blue
einstein 28 65 225 E b19 no red
kaputtnik 19 167 118 E trunk no red
Hasi 14 101 211 A trunk no blue
mars 14 118 156 A b19 yes blue
trimard 13 41 146 A b19 no red

*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 988
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Posted at: 2017-12-04, 18:39

WorldSavior wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

We should make sure that other tribes can also use similar strategies, otherwise if atlanteans can make a fully promoted guy in 35 minutes and everyone else can't we have a balance problem.

Maybe the empire can be also that fast?

But now I also wonder if it wouldn't be good to decrease the experience-amount of smiths and brewers (barbarians). Otherwise it could just take too much time, and it is possible that they really need to have elite-soldiers - maybe their rookie-rushs or 2At2Health-rushs are too bad?

I don't know how strong barbarians are exactly on small maps, but I think that atlanteans are just stronger.

It is possible that empire can also get an almost supersoldier (full evade and attack) in such a short time by skipping farms. If nobody checks the possibility first, I'll try it during the christmas holidays.

Barbarians, on the other hand, certainly cannot; they take too much time training their workers, and that time can't be shortened. So yes, I never thought I'd ever say it, but barbarians need an early game buff. If we want to keep in line with the goal of letting them get a supersoldier no later than 40-45 minutes, we have to drastically reduce the amount of training required. A good start may be 10 XP for both the weapon smith and the brewer. It would still take a lot of farming to get all the beer needed to make experience, but barbarians have enough starting resources that they can afford going for early farms.

Also, maybe we should nerf a bit atlantean level 0 soldiers (they were made strong with the idea that atlanteans would have a slow start, but instead they can rush pretty well with labirynth) and buff proportionally the shield promotions, which are very useless at the moment, especially given how expensive they are.

Maybe. But shield promotions could be more useful as soon as your suggestion with the attack-increase will be implemented, and did you know that a labyrinth cannot reach 100% productivity if it doesn't get any shields? If it gets everything except of shields, it can reach approx. 60% and if there are also not golden tabards left, the productivity will be approx. 35%.

(At the other hand, this looks like a bug )

as for the change in attack values, it was never implemented. if it becomes implemented, then shields become useful again. As for productivity, it remains low because the building skips a working cycle. It's fairly normal.

By the way, LAZA just replied. we'll have the last game, even though it won't influence the higher ranks


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GunChleoc
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Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56
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Posted at: 2017-12-04, 23:22

WorldSavior wrote:

Maybe. But shield promotions could be more useful as soon as your suggestion with the attack-increase will be implemented

Do you mean this one? https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/1662425

Edited: 2017-12-04, 23:22
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animohim
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Joined: 2014-11-05, 20:41
Posts: 45
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Pry about Widelands
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2017-12-05, 18:04

The very last match of the tournament

  • LAZA vs animohim

will take place

  • Friday, 08th of december, at 21 h
Edited: 2017-12-05, 18:05
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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Location: Saxony, Djermany
Posted at: 2017-12-06, 20:48

king_of_nowhere wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

We should make sure that other tribes can also use similar strategies, otherwise if atlanteans can make a fully promoted guy in 35 minutes and everyone else can't we have a balance problem.

Maybe the empire can be also that fast?

I don't know how strong barbarians are exactly on small maps, but I think that atlanteans are just stronger.

It is possible that empire can also get an almost supersoldier (full evade and attack) in such a short time by skipping farms.

Yes, I think so

Barbarians, on the other hand, certainly cannot; they take too much time training their workers, and that time can't be shortened.

Yes, starting an arena needs 30 minutes, and getting a master smith takes almost the same time, but it needs a lot of resources.

A good start may be 10 XP for both the weapon smith and the brewer.

I'd vote for that

Also, maybe we should nerf a bit atlantean level 0 soldiers (they were made strong with the idea that atlanteans would have a slow start, but instead they can rush pretty well with labirynth) and buff proportionally the shield promotions, which are very useless at the moment, especially given how expensive they are.

Maybe. But shield promotions could be more useful as soon as your suggestion with the attack-increase will be implemented, and did you know that a labyrinth cannot reach 100% productivity if it doesn't get any shields? If it gets everything except of shields, it can reach approx. 60% and if there are also not golden tabards left, the productivity will be approx. 35%.

(At the other hand, this looks like a bug )

as for the change in attack values, it was never implemented. if it becomes implemented, then shields become useful again.

Now I also hope that one will implement it, but I'd suggest to make the health boost of barbarian helmets even bigger, if possible...

As for productivity, it remains low because the building skips a working cycle. It's fairly normal.

But it's stupid behavior of the trainer, and i think he doesn't have a working cycle anyway. I think if he makes a successful promotion, he prefers to repeat that with the next soldier, if there is one.

And if buildings have working cycles you can tell them to skip some parts - with the help of economy settings...

GunChleoc wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Maybe. But shield promotions could be more useful as soon as your suggestion with the attack-increase will be implemented

Do you mean this one? https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/1662425

Yes.


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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GunChleoc
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Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56
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Posted at: 2017-12-07, 10:13

I have created a merge request, so we will get AppVeyor builds for those who want to test on Windows.

https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/bug-1662425-training-balancing/+merge/334893

There will be a post to the merge request with a link once the builds are available.


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animohim
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Joined: 2014-11-05, 20:41
Posts: 45
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Pry about Widelands
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2017-12-07, 10:45

Spectators stay relaxed and drink Club Mate: We go to start between 21:15h and 21:30h tomorrow night.

We will use Build19.

animohim wrote:

The very last match of the tournament

  • LAZA vs animohim

will take place

  • Friday, 08th of december, at 21 h
Edited: 2017-12-07, 10:49
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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-12-07, 12:51

I probably won't make it. I hope you'll have a great time face-smile.png


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