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Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

Tinker
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Joined: 2014-09-12, 10:53
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Posted at: 2017-08-13, 10:48

I think the tribe are reasonably well ballanced, starting wares are still to high, the small wooden tower was a better option than the current wooden tower but most other stuff is fine tweaking in my opinion. My opinion may not count for much as I actually play test the tribe every day instead of writing long posts on the therory of tribes ballance.

Edited: 2017-08-13, 10:51
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GunChleoc
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Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56
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Posted at: 2017-08-13, 11:32

Maybe we should all reduce the sarcasm a bit. Everybody has their own way of contributing face-wink.png


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2017-08-13, 15:33

Well, in a lot of cases sarcasm is some kind of a protection mechanism just not to getting to tempered. From my perspective I fully understand and support a little bit of sarcasm especially in the position of Tinker and Nordfriese. Because I think every contributor to the game especially when producing content is dependent on critics. But in my opinion these critics should be constructive and provided in a friendly manner. Ideally critics are based on own experience or evidence from testing. But if they are always negative and agressively communicated although the critic has not even tested the thing once, sarcasm might be the only other solution than stopping what you are doing to enhance the game and the latter is not an option at all.

regards hesenfarmer

PS: I don't think that the tribes need to be perfectly balanced. They just need to be not that bad unfair. So that everybody could choose the tribe of their liking.


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Tinker
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Posted at: 2017-08-13, 17:17

On a constructive point I have noticed the AI is particularly bad at playing Frisians. I am not sure if this is an AI problem or tribe settings. They never seem to build a seamstress but as they never build a reindeer farm either then there would be no fur anyway. They do seem to not understand the pairings of fruit farms and pickers so never have any fruit, except by chance. They do seem to have a unhealthy desire for fish, they will often have several dozen fishers and a similar number of aqua farms which will not work without fruit. After a 20 hour game the AI Frisians had 1400 fish in warehouses and still built more aqua farms. I do not remember seeing any beekeepers either. In the same game they had very little wood and the answer was to surround the wood cutters with a dozen rangers who had nowhere left to plant trees due to all the buildings, the answer was to dismantle the ranger and build a new ranger in the same place.


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Tibor
Joined: 2009-03-23, 23:24
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Posted at: 2017-08-13, 19:09

Tinker wrote:

They do seem to not understand the pairings of fruit farms and pickers so never have any fruit, except by chance.

I can look at it but I can see berry_farm building, but am not sure what pickers are (and what buildings they reside in)


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-08-13, 19:42

Tibor wrote:

Tinker wrote:

They do seem to not understand the pairings of fruit farms and pickers so never have any fruit, except by chance.

I can look at it but I can see berry_farm building, but am not sure what pickers are (and what buildings they reside in)

They are called Fruit Collectors and work in a Collector´s House

Tinker wrote:

They never seem to build a seamstress but as they never build a reindeer farm either then there would be no fur anyway.

Definitely an AI problem. The greater problem is the reindeer farm: AI was unable to understand a building that produces wares and recruits workers, so I marked it as basic economy. Reindeer Farm and Seamstress are prohibited_till=500, so they should be built fairly early. I can´t see a reason why the AI didn´t build one…

They do seem to not understand the pairings of fruit farms and pickers so never have any fruit, except by chance.

I marked the berry farm as renews_map_resource="fruit", but I didn´t know what to write for the collector´s and bee-keeper´s house. The aqua farm´s need for the immovable pond_dry which is placed by clay pits is a similar problem.

They do seem to have a unhealthy desire for fish, they will often have several dozen fishers and a similar number of aqua farms which will not work without fruit. After a 20 hour game the AI Frisians had 1400 fish in warehouses and still built more aqua farms. I do not remember seeing any beekeepers either. In the same game they had very little wood and the answer was to surround the wood cutters with a dozen rangers who had nowhere left to plant trees due to all the buildings, the answer was to dismantle the ranger and build a new ranger in the same place.

More AI issues, which can probably be solved by training. In my training rounds, I noticed that the AIs I selected for the next round usually made less mistakes like these than the losing AIs. I don´t know how much of AI behaviour is training and how much is hardcoded, so it might of course be a coincidence…


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2017-08-13, 20:41

the AI issues stem from little optimization. AI was optimized for all the other tribes, and even to reach its subpar level it took a lot of effort from the programmers. nobody yet put a similar effort on frisians


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2017-08-13, 20:57

What is a little bit curious is the following:
If they were able to gather fish with aqua farms they should have understood the pairing with the clay pit. so it might be a training issue. But as I suggested a minute ago in the AI thread it might be worth to have special a special AI for eveery tribe cause I'm not sure whether there could be a set of numbers performing well with every tribe.


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Tibor
Joined: 2009-03-23, 23:24
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Posted at: 2017-08-13, 21:53

hessenfarmer wrote:

What is a little bit curious is the following:
If they were able to gather fish with aqua farms they should have understood the pairing with the clay pit. so it might be a training issue.

After look into code it might be scoring issue - the score is hardcoded now and probably bit low. I would use there a DNA number and let AI figure out proper value

But as I suggested a minute ago in the AI thread it might be worth to have special a special AI for eveery tribe cause I'm not sure whether there could be a set of numbers performing well with every tribe.

I am not sure it is good idea. AI should be universal only based on config files. If somebody changes anything there it should change its behaviour accordingly


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2017-08-13, 23:20

I was just wondering whether the same numbers that are trained with one tribe would work as well for another tribe as the economies are quite different.


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