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Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 962
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One Elder of Players
Posted at: 2017-08-05, 23:56

Tinker wrote: Your 4 step plan is pretty much what I do already in a normal game, I normally have a couple of attack 1 soldiers after about half an hour and fairly soon after that I have some with all 3 basic training levels, training them further is often impossible. I have a fully stocked large training ground and a trainer but soldiers refuse to train,

that's because you have to stop the smaller training camp to avoid it draining your resources. I see that you entered into a vicious circle. You kept making new soldiers and spurred the request for more furs, which in turn prevented the food to be made to train soldiers all the way in the small camp; so your soldiers didn't train and kept consuing furs. As I said, I did block my small training camp to train upgraded soldiers and I was fine with only a handful of farms..

they sit a a warehouse or switch places with untrained soldiers in military buildings. Eventually some do train further but then avoid going to the front line where they might be useful, they hide in warehouses or in military buildings far from the enemy, even if they are set to prefer rookies.

This... seems more like a bug, if your buildings are set to prefer rookies and experienced soldiers go there.

I do not think I have ever made a fully promoted soldier in less than about 5 hours and often I have won the game before that time.

Which makes it all the more incomprehensible for me: you had many more barley farms than me, they were active for a longer time, and you had troubles getting a fully promoted soldier. I got one in two hours and I recognize I made some mistakes or I could have done it sooner.


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teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
Posts: 201
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Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Posted at: 2017-08-06, 15:42

king_of_nowhere wrote:

Coonsider that atlanteans and imperials can train a fully promoted soldier after about 75 minutes of game, in almost every map condition; barbarians need around 100 minutes, mostly because training the master blacksmith takes time (maybe we should reduce the experience needed? I open a thread for it). Frisians should be no slower than that to make a fully trained guy. If they take more than two hours, they are underpowered.

Why should all tribes should be equally powerful? There are some positive aspects in having many difficulty levels. A new challenge for the most skilled of players?


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GunChleoc
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Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56
Posts: 2083
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Location: RenderedRect
Posted at: 2017-08-08, 11:44

I don´t see a way to find out what animal a hunter caught after he caught it.

That's because there is no way currently. We would have to add something to the game engine for that to work.


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GunChleoc
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Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56
Posts: 2083
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Location: RenderedRect
Posted at: 2017-08-08, 11:47

teppo wrote:

Why should all tribes should be equally powerful? There are some positive aspects in having many difficulty levels. A new challenge for the most skilled of players?

Tribes not being equally powerful will screw up multiplayer balance. The challenge should be in managing the economy, not in their soldiers being weaker or needing significantly more resources to make.


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 375
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Location: Saxony, Djermany
Posted at: 2017-08-08, 20:28

Nordfriese wrote:

In my opinion, the Frisians are pretty balanced already.

But they aren't face-wink.png

@WorldSaviour: Why didn´t copy-pasting the data directory from the branch work for you? Was there an error message?

It's "WorldSavior", not "WorldSaviour", Nord fries. face-wink.png

As I said, not everyone can download those files easily...


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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Nordfriese
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Joined: 2017-01-17, 18:07
Posts: 172
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Posted at: 2017-08-09, 12:13

WorldSavior wrote:

@WorldSaviour: Why didn´t copy-pasting the data directory from the branch work for you? Was there an error message?

It's "WorldSavior", not "WorldSaviour", Nord fries. face-wink.png

Terribly sorry, Wor(l)dSavior face-wink.png

Nordfriese wrote:

In my opinion, the Frisians are pretty balanced already.

But they aren't face-wink.png

Thank you for your constructive, comprehensive and well-founded review which is doubtlessly based on hours of intensive testing. Perhaps you could be a bit more precise what exactly is unbalanced. When I said "pretty balanced", I meant that now only minor refining of things like sleep/work times, exact training costs, buildcosts etc is needed and no major changes to the tribe itself (like new buildings). At least, I don´t see a need for any neither from a theoretical point of view nor while playing.

Development note: I have finished making new images for all wares and small production buildings. I also made some road textures. And meanwhile fixed some minor bugs such as accidental aqua farm overproduction or typos in recycling rates. Next, I´ll work on images for the remaining buildings. I will not draw animations, workers and ships (because it would look terrible if I try that face-wink.png ). We need graphics developers for that and for improving my building images.


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 375
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Location: Saxony, Djermany
Posted at: 2017-08-11, 18:52

Nordfriese wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

@WorldSaviour: Why didn´t copy-pasting the data directory from the branch work for you? Was there an error message?

It's "WorldSavior", not "WorldSaviour", Nord fries. face-wink.png

Terribly sorry, Wor(l)dSavior face-wink.png

No big problem. "WordSavior"? Not bad face-smile.png

Nordfriese wrote:

In my opinion, the Frisians are pretty balanced already.

But they aren't ;-)

Thank you for your constructive, comprehensive and well-founded review which is doubtlessly based on hours of intensive testing.

You're welcome face-wink.png

Perhaps you could be a bit more precise what exactly is unbalanced. When I said "pretty balanced", I meant that now only minor refining of things like sleep/work times, exact training costs, buildcosts etc is needed and no major changes to the tribe itself (like new buildings). At least, I don´t see a need for any neither from a theoretical point of view nor while playing.

For example, look at the frisian tower. It combines the strengths of a fortress with the line of sight of an atlantean high tower. And however, it has a healing rate of 300, which is really high, if you compare it to the maximum healing rate of every other tribes: 220. I don't think that this is a very good balance face-wink.png


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 962
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Posted at: 2017-08-11, 19:09

WorldSavior wrote:

For example, look at the frisian tower. It combines the strengths of a fortress with the line of sight of an atlantean high tower. And however, it has a healing rate of 300, which is really high, if you compare it to the maximum healing rate of every other tribes: 220. I don't think that this is a very good balance face-wink.png

I didn't look at healing rates, or much about the military building stats, because I never playtested in battle. But yeah, I have to agree that's too good. So far, the three existing tribes all have the same stats for their greatest military buildiing. We may want to change that at some point, but I don't see anything in frisians justifying a better military building.

Stiill, I wouldn't call the tribe "unbalanced" because of it. How often a 25% greater healing rate in the fortress is really that meaningful?


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Nordfriese
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Joined: 2017-01-17, 18:07
Posts: 172
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Posted at: 2017-08-12, 11:06

I now pushed a new revision: The fortress healing rate is lowered to 220, the tower to 190. I also made some minor improvements to some productionsites logic. I´m now mainly working on new building images.

WorldSavior wrote:

For example, look at the frisian tower.

Are there other examples? If so, please give some more. If not, do you agree that the frisians are not unbalanced?


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 375
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Location: Saxony, Djermany
Posted at: 2017-08-12, 20:59

king_of_nowhere wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

For example, look at the frisian tower. It combines the strengths of a fortress with the line of sight of an atlantean high tower. And however, it has a healing rate of 300, which is really high, if you compare it to the maximum healing rate of every other tribes: 220. I don't think that this is a very good balance face-wink.png

I didn't look at healing rates, or much about the military building stats, because I never playtested in battle. But yeah, I have to agree that's too good. So far, the three existing tribes all have the same stats for their greatest military buildiing. We may want to change that at some point, but I don't see anything in frisians justifying a better military building.

Stiill, I wouldn't call the tribe "unbalanced" because of it. How often a 25% greater healing rate in the fortress is really that meaningful?

I don't know. But it's rather 35% and I think that it's just an example for the fact that the balancing is suboptimal yet...

Nordfriese wrote:

I now pushed a new revision: The fortress healing rate is lowered to 220, the tower to 190.

I like that

WorldSavior wrote:

For example, look at the frisian tower.

Are there other examples? If so, please give some more. If not, do you agree that the frisians are not unbalanced?

I don't agree, because I think that it's very improbable that they are balanced already, without a lot of playtesting and so on. But right now I'm not motivated to give any more examples. I've already contributed a lot in the discussion about the frisians, but now I don't have that much motivation any more face-wink.png


*insert phrase about the necessity of saving the world here*

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