Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

WorldSavior wrote:

I think that Widelands is a little bit different to other strategy games, it gives stronger soldiers these advantages: They cannot be surrounded by enemies who hit them all at the same time, they can retreat easier and they can be healed much faster.

That's why I wonder if it would be fair if a tribe would have much stronger/weaker heroes.

perfectly reasonable concern, but in this case for "weak heroes" I'm talking about a win chance of at least 35%. So, significantly weaker, and you can expect greater losses that you'll have to replensih with your lower costs, but nothing like one-sided fights.

hessenfarmer wrote:

Regarding the deadlocks it is of utmost importance to first build a basic building material supply. Which consists from my experience of (at least) 2 claypit, 2 well, 5 woodcutter, 5-6 forresters, 1 charcoal kiln, 1 brickburner, 1 quarry or 2 stonemines, 2 reed farm. I agree that this is an awful lot of basic buildings needed, but thats the fun.

For me that doesn't sound like more basic buildings than for the empire, but like fewer! And I think that a charcoal kiln is very far from being a basic building.

let's see. for empiire, basic buildings are 4 woodcutters 4 foresters 1 stonecutter 1 wineyard 1 winery 1 tavern 1 fishery 1 marble mine. 14 buildings to get reasonable supplies of building materials. In a large map you want more, but in a small map that's what you make before you start making soldiers. For frisians as suggested above, I count 21. no, frisian economy is definitely more complex than empire. and then with empire you need 2 farms and 1 bakery and a colosseum and you can alrready start training soldiers in evade. for frisians, i don't even have any idea what you need to start training soldier.

I would say, when we can do it in two hours, the tribe will be reasonaby balanced. we can expect that we won't play it as well as the others, so if we make it in two hours it probably can be done in less time.

Two hours? Well... Sounds like too much time, to be honest

two hours is too much, but if we can do it in two hours at the third or fourth try, we can certainly do it faster with more experience. say we can do it in 90-100 minutes, which would be a reasonable result compared to other tribes. we'd only need to start training soldiers in half an hour, as other tribes are capable of just that with evade, and evading soldiers against unpromoted soldiers is a one-sided fight.

Maybe I would do this, but installing seems to be complicated.

Does this mean you haven't played the frisians yet?

II did play them, but was always horribly slow. that's why i suggested all the cheaper prices. Now that the prices are cheaper, I can give it a good try.

Seems like this balancing falls upon me and worldsavior, we are the ones good enough to try it.

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I played a game yesterday to test promoting soldiers, I perhaps chose the wrong may, together we're strong, as it took nearly four hours to get gold production running.

While waiting for gold I had built a small arnour smithy, which produces recruit and level one weapons, as soon as the smith was reaind I built another one and upgraded to larghe armour smithy who produces the rest of the upgrade weapons, when the gold arrives. I upgraded the bakery and brewery once workers were trained so I also stockpiled mead and honey bread for training, I had also built a seamstress to make recuit clothes and upgraded her as soon as possible to stckpile upgrading clothes.. I needed to tweak the economy settings to get a large stock of everything.

As soon as I started building the gold mines I started a small traing ground and prioretised the first gold bat to go to it. By the time the gold was flowing into the production sites for the last upgrade weapons and clothes I was building the large training site and about 15% of soldiers were trained to the maximum that the small site can. Within 45 minutes of the first gold bar being produced I had my first fully promoted soldier, others followed slowly, the delay being caused by the gold deliveries taking a long time, half an hour after the first full promotion about 10% were fully promoted and 80% had at least 3 levels.

On a map where you can produce gold within half an hour it should be possible to fully promote at least one inside 2 hours, if you have supplies of meat, fish and fruit which is comparativly easy to do, then the ruling production is barley, I needed 12 farms to supply 2 sorts of brewery, 3 sorts of bakery and 2 reindeer farms, but I had 4 hours to build up stocks.

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king_of_nowhere wrote:

• building costs are fine. I needed a lot of stone, but with a rock mine and 2 quarries I managed just fine. Speed of expansion was just fine. I also needed a lot of reed, and it was my limiting resource. I should try making 3 reed yards in the beginning maybe, and dismantle one after a while.

Which frisians version did you play with?

• lots of barley is needed. I made 5 farms, and still I barely had enough to promote the brewer and baker and seamstress in the allotted time. Maybe the tresholds for promotions could be lowered a little, as the current system forces a frisian player to invest around 100 units of barley before he can make advanced buildings. Anyway, the system is good overall, and I think only minor refining is needed.

The current experience required is 23 for baker, 21 for brewer, 16 for seamstress. They could be lowered to about 16 for baker, 19 for brewer, 14 for seamstress.

• acqua farms and clay farms work well together. I wonder, though: if the clay farm does not need to produce, will it stop producing and undermine the work of the acqua farm too? This should be investigated, as it is a possible source of glitches.

Well, if the claypit stops working, then some holes remain. The aqua farm uses these holes, and when the fish are fished out, the holes fall dry again. The aqua farm can then put new fish in them. Dry holes take some time to vanish. So, I think this wouldn´t be a problem as long as there are some holes already when the aqua farm is built.

• training of fully promoted soldiers can be made in reasonable time. However, other tribes have the evade 2 promotions, which can be started after half an hour and give their soldiers a huge advantage against unpromoted ones. If we play frisians against another tribe on crater, frisians won't survive long enough to get their cool promotions. The attack 1 promotion is the only one that can be gained soon enough. Is a frisian soldier with attack 1 capable of competing with an atlantean soldier with evade 2? I call for use of einstein's tool here.

Actually, I intended for Defence 1 and Health 1 to be the first 2 promotions. Here are results for fri1 (attack only) and fri2 (1 defence, 1 health):

Battles win:

So it seems that the first attack promotion is more useful than defence+health. This should be kept in mind when balancing training costs, which I didn´t do at all yet. Current food costs are:

• 1×(smoked fish OR smoked meat) AND 1×(beer OR bread) for health 1, defence 1, attack 1-3

• 1×(smoked fish OR smoked meat) AND 1×(mead OR honeybread) for health 2 and defence 2

• 1×(smoked fish OR smoked meat) AND 1×mead AND 1×honeybread for attack 4-6

(I will have very little time for 1-2 weeks now, and I can´t do any more discussion and scripting in that time.)

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I noticed two problems today. The tavern does not seem to consume any bread when making rations and I get a fatal error crash when building a scouts hut.

Fatal exception: [/home/r.../widelands-bzr/src/graphic/animation.cc:187] wrong size: (70, 101), should be (79, 93) like the first frame FATAL ERROR - game crashed. Attempting emergency save.

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Tinker wrote:

I noticed two problems today. The tavern does not seem to consume any bread when making rations

As long as the tavern has fruit, it always prefers to use those because fruit are cheaper than bread. Not sure whether smoked meat/fish is preferred to bread or not. Bread should be considered less precious than these, I´ll check soon.

and I get a fatal error crash when building a scouts hut.

Fatal exception: [/home/r.../widelands-bzr/src/graphic/animation.cc:187] wrong size: (70, 101), should be (79, 93) like the first frame FATAL ERROR - game crashed. Attempting emergency save.

I guess you copy-pasted the newest data folder over the old one. I replaced the previous animation (consisting of many images) with a single new image.

Go to data/tribes/buildings/productionsites/frisians/scouts_house and delete all files except:

init.lua 
helptexts.lua 
menu.png
idle_00.png

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