Topic: News about AI

WorldSavior wrote:

Nordfriese wrote:

But I think that some things are pretty obvious! For example that Atlanteans should not give high priorities for a crystal-mine-economy before they have build a good wood economy, a cloth-economy and a tool-economy. (Super rare exception: Maps without cuttable stone, of course)

Or that a lack of a second vineyard can slow down the Empire like hell (especially if it builds a farm, which is usually not really important but costs 2 marble columns)

Or that barbarians will suffer if they don't focus early on tools, or if they use only one wood hardener, or if they might forget hunters/fishers etc.

In my experience, barbarians don´t suffer from having just 1 wood hardener. I only ever build 1 of those in the beginning and my blackwood supply is steady enough (if I give highest priority to logs in the wood hardener).

Are you sure that you build enough buildings? Since especially the military buildings of the barbarians really need tons of blackwood, I cannot imagine how one wood hardener could be enough. I rather made the experience that two wood hardeners are not enough ;-)

I nearly always beat the AI, so yes, I do think I build lots of military buildings. But I usually play on maps with few trees and infertile ground, so 1 wood hardener matches my log income. But I never run out of blackwood (except for about the first 20 minutes, in which I need especially much for a quick start).

I usually build a warehouse when my territory becomes quite large, and I build 1 wood hardener next to every HQ, warehouse and port.

Also, I think the fernery is pretty important and should be added to their basic economy.

I cannot find out what that is. fernery=reedyard? I think that an early reedyard is only important if you want to build ships early, or if you want to build a lot of ships in a short time, or if you want to build an insanely huge economy in a rather short time ;-)

Yes, I still call the reed yard "fernery". That is what it was called when I started playing Widelands. And I build it for the last reason – I like to start by building a very strong economy, so I like to always have some thatch reed in reserve. The fernery isn´t that expensive, so I can afford it. The first buildings I build are ALWAYS wood hardener – lime kiln – fernery – 2 lumberjacks – 5 rangers – quarry – well.

By the way, why did you suggest 2 hunters and gamekeepers? 1 each is enough in the beginning for me.

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Nordfriese wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Nordfriese wrote:

But I think that some things are pretty obvious! For example that Atlanteans should not give high priorities for a crystal-mine-economy before they have build a good wood economy, a cloth-economy and a tool-economy. (Super rare exception: Maps without cuttable stone, of course)

Or that a lack of a second vineyard can slow down the Empire like hell (especially if it builds a farm, which is usually not really important but costs 2 marble columns)

Or that barbarians will suffer if they don't focus early on tools, or if they use only one wood hardener, or if they might forget hunters/fishers etc.

In my experience, barbarians don´t suffer from having just 1 wood hardener. I only ever build 1 of those in the beginning and my blackwood supply is steady enough (if I give highest priority to logs in the wood hardener).

Are you sure that you build enough buildings? Since especially the military buildings of the barbarians really need tons of blackwood, I cannot imagine how one wood hardener could be enough. I rather made the experience that two wood hardeners are not enough ;-)

I nearly always beat the AI, so yes, I do think I build lots of military buildings.

Well, the AI is not a good benchmark, because it's so pathetic

But I usually play on maps with few trees and infertile ground, so 1 wood hardener matches my log income. But I never run out of blackwood (except for about the first 20 minutes, in which I need especially much for a quick start).

And running out of it slows you down. That should be avoided

I usually build a warehouse when my territory becomes quite large, and I build 1 wood hardener next to every HQ, warehouse and port.

Wow, so sometimes you have a giant number of wood hardeners? Could also be possible to build less

Also, I think the fernery is pretty important and should be added to their basic economy.

I cannot find out what that is. fernery=reedyard? I think that an early reedyard is only important if you want to build ships early, or if you want to build a lot of ships in a short time, or if you want to build an insanely huge economy in a rather short time ;-)

Yes, I still call the reed yard "fernery". That is what it was called when I started playing Widelands. And I build it for the last reason – I like to start by building a very strong economy, so I like to always have some thatch reed in reserve. The fernery isn´t that expensive, so I can afford it.

That's debatable. It costs 5 wood, and barbarians need tons of wood for buildings, so they need tons of wood in the beginning. And I usually build so many more important buildings in the beginning that the HQ cannot put all those wares outside at the same time. So building the reedyard can block you a little bit...

The first buildings I build are ALWAYS wood hardener – lime kiln – fernery – 2 lumberjacks – 5 rangers – quarry – well.

2 lumberjacks? I really recommend you to build much more. 5 are not even enough, maybe not enough by far And 2 quarries should be the minimum...

Well, a tribe can only be as strong as the weakest part of it. And I think that 2 lumberjacks form a very weak wood industry, so your whole tribe might be very weak, if my theory is right

By the way, why did you suggest 2 hunters and gamekeepers? 1 each is enough in the beginning for me.

Because barbarians usually start with at least two mines (or much more). And each mine needs one gamekeeper, so here you go

Tibor wrote:

I think this should be tested.

Yes, improving of the AI needs testing, for sure. But I would be bad at that, I can only watch matches of the current AI and analyse them. Okay, I think I'm not that bad at analysing those matches, but I cannot really test new AI branches

Pick about three distinct maps

Crater, Full Moon, The Nile

, test my lists, some alternative lists, for all three teams and see how they perform. Otherwise it is just guesswork

Well, I'm pretty sure about the way how the AI should play, for example: Crystal mines should be build only when they are needed (that's usually quite late)

But I don't know so well how this can be implemented

And of course: Even if the basic economy will be perfect, the other parts of the economy can spoil the whole tribe. So you could only judge which basic economy is the best if the rest of the AI is perfect, right? Complicated.

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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How about having multiple levels of economy, rather than just the basic one? This way we could experiment with multiple stages. If all required buildings have been built for one stage, move on to the next stage. So, the AI could require 1 sawmill in stage 0, but 2 sawmills in stage 3,... of course, this could cause a problem when it's impossible to build all buildings for a stage on the current map, so the rules when to move on should be somewhat relaxed, or be a list of building priorities or some such.

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Well, it's just an idea - I don't know that much about the AI code. If it doesn't work for you, forget that I said anything

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Yep, you've been working on it for a long time. I'll see what I can do about testing.

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