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Topic: Weapon reuse?

DragonAtma
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Joined: 2014-09-14, 01:54
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Posted at: 2014-12-02, 18:51

One thing I've noticed is that when you upgrade a soldier, they simply use up the new wares. So by the time an atlantean is fully trained, they've gone through five tridents, two shields, and two tabards. Obviously, they're not using all of those at once!

So, have you thought about them returning older equipment to the warehouse (for later soldiers) when a soldier upgrade? Or would that feel too unbalancing, even if you upgrade the costs of newer equipment to take that into account?


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tosz
Joined: 2012-09-03, 13:39
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Posted at: 2014-12-02, 19:56

How would that make the game more fun?


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SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
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Posted at: 2014-12-02, 21:34

I agree with tosz. That goes against the basic idea that it should be super expensive to train a soldier that high. This game is about economy, warfare is just an afterthought.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2014-12-03, 16:42

it would make sense from a realism point of view, but don't work mechanic-wise. you could promote all your soldiers with a single set of weapons, there would be little use for a good mining economy.


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wl-zocker
Joined: 2011-12-30, 17:37
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Posted at: 2014-12-03, 18:20

One could argue that the used weapons are worn - the axes are blunt and the shields are out of shape.


"Only few people know how much one has to know in order to know how little one knows." - Werner Heisenberg

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tuggyne
Joined: 2011-07-22, 00:27
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Posted at: 2014-12-03, 18:43

DragonAtma wrote:

One thing I've noticed is that when you upgrade a soldier, they simply use up the new wares. So by the time an atlantean is fully trained, they've gone through five tridents, two shields, and two tabards. Obviously, they're not using all of those at once!

So, have you thought about them returning older equipment to the warehouse (for later soldiers) when a soldier upgrade? Or would that feel too unbalancing, even if you upgrade the costs of newer equipment to take that into account?

My initial reaction was to say that it's not so much that it would necessarily be imbalancing (especially after adjusting the costs of superior equipment), as that it would emphasize the wrong things. As SirVer in particular said, the emphasis in Widelands is very strongly on guiding an economy, not military tactics or even so much strategy.

But then I stepped back a bit and wondered why returning them to the economy would actually be a bad thing, and I actually don't think it would be. In fact, because it would also put a stronger emphasis on just how absurdly expensive a really advanced soldier is, it might improve the economic verisimilitude there too.

That said, it requires a fair amount of effort to change all that. Partly in the code to spit out the previously used weapon/armor (but not food) upon training, and partly too in the detailed rebalancing of all but the simplest weapons.

It's also possible that some weapons might require so many materials that their smithys can't hold enough to get started, and although the Atlantean heavy double trident and Empire war lance don't seem to have this problem, a naive summing-up of the Barbarian warrior's axe requires something like 9 coal, 3 gold, and 11 iron, while their war mills only hold 8/8/8 the same as the others.


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DragonAtma
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Joined: 2014-09-14, 01:54
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Posted at: 2014-12-03, 19:02

Well, one solution would be to use weapons in making stronger ones. The level 3 axe, for example, could require the current materials used to make it, plus one level 2 axe. That way, weapons get reused, as they're gradually built up from bottom level to top level, and warriors don't wind up with five axes, two helmets, and a mask.

It'd also make it easier to make axefactories concentrate on basic axes.


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wl-zocker
Joined: 2011-12-30, 17:37
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Posted at: 2014-12-03, 19:12

I think programming-wise, it would be no problem to change the behavior (I do not know if trainingsites can produce wares, but if they can, this change can be done by only changing the conf files).

But much times has been spent into balancing the tribes as well as possible (they all have advantages and disadvantages, but none is always superior). Such a change would require much effort without much benefit. The main problem is the following: If the last level of a soldier is very very very expensive, why shouldn't I just leave it at the second-highest level? He is fairly well, he will win many fights, and he barely consumed any wares.

Having to produce many different weapons is also an interesting economic aspect. The weapon smith works as follows:
If the most basic ax is needed, try to produce it. If there are not enough wares, rebegin the whole cycle. If he was successful (or this ax is not needed), check if the second ax is needed. If yes, try to produce it. If there are not enough wares, rebegin the whole cycle (i.e. with the first ax). If successful (or the second ax is not needed), go on to the third ax etc. In between, he always rests a bit to get his stock refilled.
If your economy is bad and the wares are not delivered fast enough, only the basic ax will be produced and you will never have fully trained soldiers. If the wares could be used again, I think it would be quite easy to get the best soldiers (because the weapon smith skips the production of the first few axes)


"Only few people know how much one has to know in order to know how little one knows." - Werner Heisenberg

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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2014-12-03, 20:57

If any change was made at all, I would let the training sites produce a used-up version of the weapon/armor, that then would have to go back to the smelter to be melted down into iron/gold again. Or back to the Weaving Mill for the Atlantean Tabards. This would be a lot of effort to create well though.

ETA: related bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/1493221

Edited: 2015-09-08, 10:55

Busy indexing nil values

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wl-zocker
Joined: 2011-12-30, 17:37
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Posted at: 2014-12-03, 22:02

go back to the smelter to be melted down into iron/gold again

An interesting idea. It would make iron and gold kind of renewable, but would consume even more coal.

This would be a lot of effort to create well though.

Can you elaborate? We need new images for the used-up weapons that are clearly distinguishable from the new weapons. And we have to add a program or two to the smelting works. There are no tabards to recycle because there is only one level.


"Only few people know how much one has to know in order to know how little one knows." - Werner Heisenberg

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