Topic: Resource discovery and mine place-holders

Fuchur wrote:

Just one comment to the problem of outdated ressource markers. They could fade out after a certain time but not vanish completely.

Fuchur's idea of "fading" indicators seems the ideal answer to the question of "old info or new info?".
But we may not even need that, if we automatically send a geologist for a "near area survey" update, whenever you burn or dismantle a mine.
Honestly, I think we should find a way to remember the results of prospecting and to show it again, when you need it.
Especially when you come back to an old savegame, you may not even know whether you once had a mine in that region, or not. BTW: the same problem exists with fish. Is this place already exploited or not?

Nasenbaer wrote:

showing resource indicators on spaces where once resources were found (similiar to build help overlay) - sounds like a possible solution, but the question is similar to the markers that stay until eternity: autoupdating does not seem to be a good idea, so this is not yet a real solution.

I am not sure, Nasenbaer, where you see the problem.
Nothing will change the mining resources in your territory, except your own mines, right?
When you conquer a new mountain range, from "no man's land" or an enemy, you must do a survey to see what is (still) in there. That info will be valid until you have build a new mine and it runs empty. At that point you need to update the markers or indicators. As mentioned above, you could even think about automatically calling a single geologist for a "near area scan" whenever you burn or dismantle a mine. Not as a comfort feature, but to make sure a player has a fresh survey when you need to build a replacement mine in the vicinity. That is a case that happens very often.
What is missing for a "real solution"?

Nasenbaer also wrote:

Player generated list to mark areas or fields with user defined texts

A player would click on a tool, to mark a specific area or a point (highlighted in the user interface), can add a text and save it, can choose this or another saved area/point in a list, can jump to the position - the overlay for that area can be turned on and of, and it can of course be deleted.

Such a feature might be useful for even more stuff than just the mining.

I think there was a feature request for named map regions, this could be implemented on the same basics...

Yes, exactly. It was discussed as part of the "named regions" blueprint, that was adopted. Sigra did some preliminary work and Sirver wanted to implement the named regions. I don't think he got very far with this.
The main focus, however, was that the mapmaker , not the player, could name regions (mirror lake, rattlesnake pass etc.) to add a little flavour to the maps and to reference these names in scenarios.
A "commenting feature" for the player would be very welcome (for those looooong, re-opened savegames ), but I think it's topic of its own.

QCS's idea of "see-what-we-can-find-here-mines":

It's tempting, and I had myself initially thought in this direction, but gave it up.
It's overkill. I want to play widelands, not a prospector's game.
Prospecting and relocating mines is the driving force behind the need to expand. It also is a nice challenge, if the mapmaker has thoughtfully cut you off from coal or water supplies (not many maps are that way), but it is not at the center of this game in my understanding. I personally would not want to spend more time inside the game for the prospecting/mining business.

Simplypeachy's mind-boggling flood of ideas

I will have to read all of this a few more times, to understand everything that is in it, hinted at, and the rest of the implications that may come from it. Let me catch my breath please.

However, one point at least, I fully understand right away:
Simplypeachy wrote:

We have to be wary of changing behaviour just because it is "more realistic". However, a geologist working methodically would make more sense. I have to say that there is something pleasing to see him run around randomly finding resources :D...
...but, despite my frustration at the current implementation, I like seeing the geologist walking randomly around. I think the "cuteness" of Widelands has been mentioned before as a precious resource that must be preserved

I agree with the aim of preserving the cuteness, but my intention is not realism.
The purpose behind the more effective spot finding I was suggesting is a better, gapless map of the resources and also to speed up the process.
Speeding it up may to some extent contradict the cuteness, but I hope we can compensate for it.
Two ideas:

1. Add different sound comments for the geologists according to their findings -- and it doesn't need to be the classic "Yipeee" from Settlers.

2. When the last marker is set, let each geologist do some animation. (there could be more then one randomly applied).

   • miraculously produce a lounger or blanket and bask in the sun for a while
   • produce some food or drink out of the rucksack for a short picnic.
   • build a little stone pile

Those should not take long in case you need the same geologists elsewhere, but they'd help a lot for cuteness.
But it would mean more work for the graphicians again, so much is certain.

Being no programmer, I apologize for all my suggestions that imply undue workload and for other misjudgements due to lack of expertise or relevant skills.
I am on Win32, have no means to compile, and rely on prefabricated distributions (Thanks to Tino).

Top

Quote

SirVer wrote: I find QCS idea of 'testing mines' intriguing - not as a general solution for all tribes, but for example for the atlanteans. They would make their research under the earth with a 'mine' that would produce resource indicators while working. This mine could then be expanded to a proper mine just as QCS has suggested. This would add a new distinction between the tribes and it has some intriguing strategic implications (imho): Barbarians/Empire can scout mountains before they fully conquered them and if they do, they know quickly where to build mines. Atlanteans have to think if they want to build the scouting mine as soon as possible (that is at the edge of the mountain) to get resources as fast as possible or wait till they conquered the whole mountain to place the mine right in the middle so it has the farthest reach. I really like this idea.

This brings two questions for me:

• Obviously the atlanteans would do the resource search much more complicated than the others do - even the uncivilized barbarians know how to find resources fast and simple, so why don't the atlanteans do? And why don't they know that way when they saw geologists of other tribes working?
• The normal way for players that are common to a map, is to directly build a mine instead of first searching for resources. Why wasting time, when you know there are the resources? - of course this is something that might lead to unfair games, but if a player knows all the maps and the other does not, I doubt this is the main problem. Anyway, the real problem is: two players that both know the map, one as barbarian or imperial and one as atlantean - so now the atlantean would have a disadvantage, because it can't build mines directly, while the other can - or did I missunderstand the idea somewhere?

Concering the fade of colors: I generally like the idea - the question is, how to get it work properly - fading white and fading black on a grey bottom will make the granite and coal markers look similiar, maybe even similiar to the "no resource" marker. - but I guess this is a question for the graphicians

Top

Quote

Nasenbaer wrote:

The normal way for players that are common to a map, is to directly build a mine instead of first searching for resources. Why wasting time, when you know there are the resources? - of course this is something that might lead to unfair games, but if a player knows all the maps and the other does not, I doubt this is the main problem. Anyway, the real problem is: two players that both know the map, one as barbarian or imperial and one as atlantean - so now the atlantean would have a disadvantage, because it can't build mines directly, while the other can - or did I missunderstand the idea somewhere?

That's normal? You folks must really know those maps well

Am I not playing enough Widelands?

Maybe the Atlantean scout mine would upgrade to a "normal" mine without any wares or construction. They already have picks and food for mining, they know how to do the job. I do like the idea of the Atlantean mining being more refined. I think I should start playing them more often.

WARNING: New-style view packet not found. There may be strange effects regarding unseen areas.
_aD on IRC

Top

Quote

Obviously the atlanteans would do the resource search much more complicated than the others do - even the uncivilized barbarians know how to find resources fast and simple, so why don't the atlanteans do? And why don't they know that way when they saw geologists of other tribes working?

I see it differently: the other tribes can just check the ground for resources and start digging immediately. If it shows that there are more resources than they first thought, they just dig deeper -> enhance their mines. The atlanteans are sophisticated and make a perfect mine in all cases (maximum deepness) so they already need to know how deep the soil goes. Therefore there is a need to explore the ground more throughoutly beforehand.

The normal way for players that are common to a map, is to directly build a mine instead of first searching for resources. Why wasting time, when you know there are the resources? - of course this is something that might lead to unfair games, but if a player knows all the maps and the other does not, I doubt this is the main problem. Anyway, the real problem is: two players that both know the map, one as barbarian or imperial and one as atlantean - so now the atlantean would have a disadvantage, because it can't build mines directly, while the other can - or did I missunderstand the idea somewhere?

Yes, the atlanteans are at an disadvantage then. But later on, when they do not have to deepen their mines and they reap the benefit of the huge working area of their mines they are at an advantage over the other tribes who need to repeatedly enhance their mines and build much more of them because the working radius is only 50% of the ones of the atlanteans. I can't fathom the balance implications on small maps though - maybe the disadvantage is too strong then. I think it would be nice to try it out though.

Top

Quote

I always hated all this geologist stuff. Sure there are ways to improve, but I'd rather like it radically scrapped altogether and have mountains (at least on your territory) always show their resources. Unrealistic? Sure, but it's a game. Geologist, no matter how improved, will always give unfair advantage to players with map knowledge.

Top

Quote