Topic: Fix Barbarians' early training disadvantage
hessenfarmer |
Posted at: 2017-12-03, 20:53
in my opiniuon it made totally sense, cause I was hoping you could retest this behaviour to confirm if there might be a bug in the code. This request was just politely put into a question. As you haven't answered to this could you please confirm whether the small brewery ignores economy settings if the worker needs experience. Top Quote |
GunChleoc Topic Opener |
Posted at: 2017-12-04, 08:30
I agree that they don't have to be equal. The reason I raised this point is that if I'm playing a small map against a good player who is playing another tribe, I won't be able to play Barbarians if they play a rush strategy, because I will have no chance no matter what I do. We should do some playtesting to see how long it takes until every tribe can start training if they build just the basic essentials to get a trainingsite going, and then maybe give the master brewer a little less XP requirements. Busy indexing nil values Top Quote |
WorldSavior |
Posted at: 2017-12-04, 18:05
A modding system would be great - as long it wouldn't be bad for multiplayer matches and tournaments.
Okay
Well, Barbarians can immediately build a trainingscamp which can immediately start to train soldiers in attack (2) and health (2 or even 3), and those soldiers are clearly stronger than every soldier who is only evade-trained. The problem is rather that those soldiers have to wait a lot until they can be further trained
If there has to be a change, I would vote for speeding up the Barbarians. Maybe king_of_nowhere's idea of decreasing the experience amounts of the master-smiths is too good to not be implemented, and also the brewers could need lower experience.
And I still think that it's practically impossible to balance them perfectly on all maps. The maps are just too different. But trying to approach to a good balance is a good aim
I've (very) often played barbarians, so I've been absolutely sure in this case. If I'm not sure, I signalize that in most cases. And now I tested it in b19: I was right. I even took a look at the code of trunk, and it has not been changed.
If they rush you with rookies or evade-trained soldiers, you could use an early trainings camp. But if they rush you with atlantean soldiers with ev2health1+ some attack promotions, you've got a problem. And evade1 would not really help... So maybe the experience requirements of brewers and smiths are too big...
I've already tested a lot. Fastest tribes are the empire and the atlanteans (empire with arena, but that is not always very effective. and with atlanteans it doesn't make much sense to start only with a dungeon). Only few minutes slower are the atlantean labyrinth and the trainingscamps of the other tribes. The imperial trainingscamp is not the best trainingsside for an early game strategy, but also not the worst. The colosseum takes more than twice as much time to be build than the imperial arena, and the barbarian arena takes more than three times as much time to start than the imperial arena. But this one is not effective anyway. If your suggestion with the normal beer will be implemented, this arena can begin as fast as the trainingscamp to work. Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked Top Quote |
teppo |
Posted at: 2017-12-06, 07:21
I still think that making the tribes too similar would be a pity.
I would like to push this even more: Make the barbarian trainingscamp to be an upgradeable building: Bootcamp (for example) -> Trainingscamp, where the "bootcamp" would be cheaper to build (no gold needed etc.), but would only train the first steps (2 attack, 2 health, for example). This would, of course, push the tribes even more off balance on some maps. If the target is to have them equal in all conditions, this would be a wrong way to go. Top Quote |
king_of_nowhere |
Posted at: 2017-12-06, 15:06
the first time you suggested this I was against it, because barbarians were stronger in early game and this would make them even stronger. Now, improved strategies with the other tribes showed that barbarians are actually weaker, so I am in favor of it. Incidentally, a boot camp that can churn out passably strong soldiers early would also be a viable balance factor against the 35-minute supersoldier. While not as strong as an atlantean with full attack and evade, two or three of those barbarian soldiers would be strong enough that they could kill the atlantean by ganging up on him. which will happen if the atlantean tries to attack alone. Top Quote |
GunChleoc Topic Opener |
Posted at: 2017-12-08, 11:36
Merge Request: https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/bug-1662425-training-balancing/+merge/334893 AppVeyor builds: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/widelands-dev/widelands Busy indexing nil values Top Quote |
WorldSavior |
Posted at: 2017-12-09, 02:16
If they are too similar, we have got another problem. But aren't they far away from being similar? I think that balance is more important as long as they are not too similar
This would be an interesting improvement for the barbarians
It could still cost some gold... But even in that case, it could change the balance. Well, I haven't thought about it that much yet...
Okay, 10% are not that huge, that's right. But Barbarians don't even get 3% more healthpoints...
Okay Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked Top Quote |
teppo |
Posted at: 2017-12-10, 12:47
Barbarians can already build trainingscamp, weapon smith and helmsmith right away. If the "bootcamp" would cost no gold, then it would still be possible to start training a microbrewery, and know that battle arena is behind the corner. If the training needs of master brewer is also reduced: Do the barbarians become too good? Top Quote |
GunChleoc Topic Opener |
Posted at: 2017-12-10, 15:01
Teppo has a point, we should playtest the proposed branch first to make sure that we won't overcompensate. Busy indexing nil values Top Quote |
WorldSavior |
Posted at: 2017-12-11, 19:10
If the bootcamp would cost no gold, it could be unfair: The only trainingssite which costs no gold is the imperial arena and it can do only one promotion. But if the bootcamp would cost gold, it wouldn't make barbarians too strong, I guess. Supplying the bootcamp fully will be not that cheap...
Yes. The bootcamp could be a big change... And the other stuff should be tested, too Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked Top Quote |