Topic: Tavern Resource Order

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toptopple Topic Opener Joined: 2013-10-30, 07:11 Posts: 156 At home in WL-forums	Posted at: 2016-09-28, 07:47 You are right, the logic shouldn't be affected by the dialog design, but actually what is to be reported is that the logic has changed! Some time ago I already tried to redefine the logical order and received an error because of an unexpected mandatory order of arguments (defined upon the set of resources), which in my eyes is nonsense, at least for such purposes as scripting it is nonsense. But actually the logic has changed, or so it seems, as in my late test game Fish is always preferred, where formerly it was Bread. So someone must have changed the logic, and even without discussion! Top Quote

GunChleoc Joined: 2013-10-07, 14:56 Posts: 3324 One Elder of Players Location: RenderedRect	Posted at: 2016-09-28, 08:02 Well, if I had been aware that I was changing the logic, I would not have done it this late in the development cycle. I will make a list of the changes so we can see if it needs reverting. Busy indexing nil values Top Quote

GunChleoc Joined: 2013-10-07, 14:56 Posts: 3324 One Elder of Players Location: RenderedRect	Posted at: 2016-09-28, 08:42 Here's the changes that affect the logic - we can revert that for now if we want. Barbarian & Empire Ration: Before: fish, bread, meat After: fish, meat, bread Barbarians and Empire Trainingcamp, upgrading soldier health from level 0 to level 1: Before: bread, fish, meat After: fish, meat, bread Busy indexing nil values Top Quote

toptopple Topic Opener Joined: 2013-10-30, 07:11 Posts: 156 At home in WL-forums	Posted at: 2016-09-28, 12:00 Can you explain as to why logic has changed? Does it refer to display design anyhow? That wouldn't be good. My feeling for these logic changes is that they need a compensation and actually I wouldn'tr vote for the Trainingcamp change because, as I mentioned, I believe there must be difficulties & pitfalls in the game. There must be a difference between Fellows and Pears, if you get what I mean, otherwise the whole thing loses in interest! But I assume that most others will prefer the "perfect simulation" thing. As a small compensation I suggest to prolong the Fisher's idle-fishing period from 3 to 20 seconds. That looks good and prevents the usual fish flood for a single hut. Top Quote

GunChleoc Joined: 2013-10-07, 14:56 Posts: 3324 One Elder of Players Location: RenderedRect	Posted at: 2016-09-28, 14:10 The reason that the logic has changed is the bug that SirVer and I already mentioned in this thread. Fixing this bug for Build 19 is not an option, because the potential for accidentally introducing even worse bugs is too great. We have to leave that for Build 20. Let's discuss right now what we want to do about the Taverns/Inns/Big Inns and Training Camps for Build 19 right now - do we want bread to be used up before meat / fish and meat or not? We have 2 options for each of the affected buildings: Go for the new display order, making the user interface more consistent, but changing the game logic as a side effect Revert the old display order, thus reverting to the old logic as well as a side effect. Busy indexing nil values Top Quote

king_of_nowhere Joined: 2014-09-15, 17:35 Posts: 1668 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2016-09-28, 17:16 for empire, meat is generally more expensive than bread, since both require grain and water, but bread production requires a mill (very fast, makes a flour every 20 seconds) and a bakery (makes bread in around 60 seconds), both medium-sized buuildings, while meat requires a piggery, which makes a meat in around one minute and is a large building. basicallly, you need four-thirds of a medium building to make bread, and a full large building to make meat. And on a completely flat map, you can store 9 medium buildings or 4 large ones in the same space, so definitely imperial meat is more expensive than bread. If we wanted to appease toptopple, we could introduce (for build20) a new function "preferrably consume this ware" that would let the player decide if bread, meat or fish is used first, and would be set by default as "random". but i don't think it's needed because, as I argued, it's not a meaningful choice to make and does not add depth to the game. Top Quote

einstein13 Joined: 2013-07-28, 23:01 Posts: 1118 One Elder of Players Location: Poland	Posted at: 2016-09-29, 08:14 As I was playing Empire, I preffered to use meat in taverns. King_of_nowhere is right that it is more expensive than bread, but it is less needed resource: you can gain some meat very cheap when you start playing (hunter's huts). But this meat is limited. Then you can produce meat from pigs (expensive, but limitless). Using bread is always a problem. Why? Because Empire need lots of bread to train soldiers. Using fish on some maps is always a problem: fish is very limited resource for Empire and when you get all possible fish from the water, you will have no more. So my basic strategy was to limit all resources in taverns, inns and trainings camps / colloseums: taverns get all meat, 2 (or 1) bread and 1 (or 0) fish - then they produce rations mostly from meat inns get all meat, half (3?) bread and 1 (or 0) fish - rations from meat or bread, possible to make meals from bread and meat training centers get all resources with high priority - they can work with full speed, when lack of fish: use meat instead I'm not sure if new conditions will work the same, but last proposition (preferably consuming) sounds good. Then I can set any settings and save my time Also good idea is to make "user-default resources settings". Then you can set them in only one place instead of clicking in all taverns This will save time. einstein13 calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/ backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/ Top Quote

king_of_nowhere Joined: 2014-09-15, 17:35 Posts: 1668 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2016-09-29, 17:53 what eiinstein said reminds me of an old proposal (maybe I made it myself?) to let the player fix settings of a new building in construction directly from the construction site. that way i could build a taver, click on the construction site and select that it will not accept bread, and then it will already have that setting once it's finished. or maybe i could tell it to upgrade to inn as soon as finished, or other stuff. basically, it would not be a bother if one could do it right when starting the building. it is a bother if one has to keep the construction site window open all the time until the building is done to then fix settings. And if we leave a choice, we should also tell the AI (at leat at higher levels) to use the correct settings for itself. Top Quote

GunChleoc Joined: 2013-10-07, 14:56 Posts: 3324 One Elder of Players Location: RenderedRect	Posted at: 2016-09-30, 08:31 I have created a branch in case we want to change this back for now: https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/wares_queues_taverns_trainingsites I am in favour of keeping it as it is in trunk right now for Build 19 though - it means a bit less micromanagement, and makes things easier for new players and the AI too. Busy indexing nil values Top Quote

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