Topic: Tavern Resource Order

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toptopple Topic Opener Joined: 2013-10-30, 07:11 Posts: 156 At home in WL-forums	Posted at: 2016-09-27, 13:03 I noticed in playing 8108 that the order of resource consumption in the Barbarian Tavern has changed. It now goes 1. Fish, 2. Meat, 3. Bread. Has there been a discussion about it? Top Quote

GunChleoc Joined: 2013-10-07, 14:56 Posts: 3324 One Elder of Players Location: RenderedRect	Posted at: 2016-09-27, 13:23 There was a bug filed which I fixed: https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/1618547 Wares order was inconsistent from building to building, and the new order I chose is cheapest first, most expensive last. Busy indexing nil values Top Quote

toptopple Topic Opener Joined: 2013-10-30, 07:11 Posts: 156 At home in WL-forums	Posted at: 2016-09-27, 14:13 My concern is that this game becomes too easy to play. Perhaps we must have a fundamental debate on this topic, which may concern multiple things, at a suitable time. Top Quote

GunChleoc Joined: 2013-10-07, 14:56 Posts: 3324 One Elder of Players Location: RenderedRect	Posted at: 2016-09-27, 17:05 Why does it concern you if the user interface is more consistent? The challenge should be running your economy, not figuring out where everything is on screen. Or maybe I misunderstand you? Busy indexing nil values Top Quote

king_of_nowhere Joined: 2014-09-15, 17:35 Posts: 1668 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2016-09-27, 17:22 toptopple wrote: My concern is that this game becomes too easy to play. eh, i have argued that point myself several times, but in this case I don't see it as a bad thing. Problem is, before that there was no way of preventing your taverns from making rations from bread first, which was a horribly inefficient use. ok, you could set all your taverns to accept no bread, but then still your (big) inns would use bread for rations sometimes. and even if all run smoothly, you'd have to keep some taverns and your (big) inns would skip a work cycle every time, with loss of efficiency. And there was nothing to do about it.so, I'm all in favor of this change. Top Quote

GunChleoc Joined: 2013-10-07, 14:56 Posts: 3324 One Elder of Players Location: RenderedRect	Posted at: 2016-09-27, 18:44 Actually, this is a pure user interface change. The production programs still operate like they used to. So, if you want to set your taverns to accept no bread, it is easier to find where the bread is. Edited: 2016-09-27, 18:45 Busy indexing nil values Top Quote

toptopple Topic Opener Joined: 2013-10-30, 07:11 Posts: 156 At home in WL-forums	Posted at: 2016-09-27, 19:15 @GunChleoc No, this isn't just an interface change but also a logic change. If the selection sequence is "Bread, Meat, Fish" then the default use of resources is Bread if available, in the sequence "Fish, Meat, Bread" Fish is the default usage. So in the first case it requires a conscious player decision to agjust the economy to a more efficient running. If the game's tendency is to take away such decisions into the programatic logic, then what we may call "strategical depth" of the game suffers. And that's a noteworthy point! Top Quote

SirVer Joined: 2009-02-19, 14:18 Posts: 1445 One Elder of Players Location: Germany - Munich	Posted at: 2016-09-27, 20:52 I thought that wares groups are actually randomized (i.e. if fish or beer is needed and both are available, it is random which one is consumed). But in fact, it is actually in a defined order. I consider this the bug here: the order in the UI should not affect the order of the logic. Top Quote

king_of_nowhere Joined: 2014-09-15, 17:35 Posts: 1668 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2016-09-27, 20:55 yes, but in this case we're not talking about a strategical decision. there's nothing "strategical" about deciding whether to use bread or meat to make rations. strategic depth is about making decisions that aren't obvious, and in this case one possibility is clearly good and the other is clearly wrong and there's nothing more to say about it. it just requires the player to bother with doing manually someething that could be fully automated Top Quote

GunChleoc Joined: 2013-10-07, 14:56 Posts: 3324 One Elder of Players Location: RenderedRect	Posted at: 2016-09-28, 07:35 toptopple wrote: @GunChleoc No, this isn't just an interface change but also a logic change. The user interface order is defined as: `inputs = { { name = "fish", amount = 4 }, { name = "meat", amount = 4 }, { name = "barbarians_bread", amount = 4 } },` And the logic is defined as: `actions = { "sleep=14000", "return=skipped unless economy needs ration", "consume=barbarians_bread,fish,meat", "play_sound=sound/taverns dishes 100", "animate=working 19000", "produce=ration" },` I didn't expect that to be consumed in wares queue order, because these 2 definitions should be independent of each other. As SirVer said, this should be random and it's a bug. I just did some searching and found out that a bug has already been filed about this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/985790 So, it becomes a balancing issue right now. The question is, does it harm or good? For the taverns, the position of bread has been moved from 2nd to 3rd position. It has been reported that Barbarians are weak in late game, and since needing lots of farms is one of the difficulties, this might actually help? Busy indexing nil values Top Quote

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